1) Where did it all go wrong?
2) How much worse can it get?
3) How can we get out of this mess?
4) Will we ever turn the corner?
Answers, suggestions, comments, anything please. Here are my thoughts.
1) It went wrong when Herd overspent, and scarpered.
It started going wrong on the pitch when we sold Matty Elliott. Various other key moments include: Selling Dean Windass when we did the morale sapping damage limitation exercise at Arsenal the drubbing at Hull the frittering of funds on dubious Argentinian players and of course that fateful transfer day madness of Jim Smith.
2) We can still get relegated at least one more division.
3) I have no idea, other than starting again, how it can end positively. Even that is a huge gamble.
4) Please god, yes. This is based on hope, not any expectation.
Why are we so utterly sh*t?
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Myles Francis
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1) Despite the damage caused by the end of Maxwell's reign, the villain of the piece for me is also Herd. Rushing into the development at Minchery Farm before the funding was solidly in place is the first domino in the line.
2) In the club's present guise, I can't honestly see how much worse it can get and the club surviving. This season's losses will be huge and further relegation would, IMHO, be unsustainable given the stadium rental payments.
3) On the pitch, if we manage to stumble across a winning line-up and, somehow, sneak into the play-offs some of the fans confidence will return. But we'll still have the problem of mounting debt. Off the pitch, if the stadium were to be purchased by WPL and the club were then only charged a peppercorn rent, that would give some breathing space, but at present levels we'd still be losing money.
One does have to wonder where we would be if it had all gone breasts skywards in 1997 and we'd had to start again. I'd like to think that, at the very least, we'd be in Conference South by now, if not comfortably mid-table in Conference National. Thinking about having to start again now though is more horrible than I can even think about!
4) Lord knows! I think it was you Dan who asked the question about one team having so much bad luck. One must believe that the luck will change at some point but it does seem that OUFC is blessed with some reverse-Midas gift!
2) In the club's present guise, I can't honestly see how much worse it can get and the club surviving. This season's losses will be huge and further relegation would, IMHO, be unsustainable given the stadium rental payments.
3) On the pitch, if we manage to stumble across a winning line-up and, somehow, sneak into the play-offs some of the fans confidence will return. But we'll still have the problem of mounting debt. Off the pitch, if the stadium were to be purchased by WPL and the club were then only charged a peppercorn rent, that would give some breathing space, but at present levels we'd still be losing money.
One does have to wonder where we would be if it had all gone breasts skywards in 1997 and we'd had to start again. I'd like to think that, at the very least, we'd be in Conference South by now, if not comfortably mid-table in Conference National. Thinking about having to start again now though is more horrible than I can even think about!
4) Lord knows! I think it was you Dan who asked the question about one team having so much bad luck. One must believe that the luck will change at some point but it does seem that OUFC is blessed with some reverse-Midas gift!
Some answers:
Where did it all go wrong?
No single point but a long catalogue of disasters, here are my low-lights:
1. When Maxwell metaphorically jumped ship to Derby
2. When Maxwell literally jumped ship
3. When Herd & Cox dreamed up the fantasy stadium finance package
4. When Herd & Cox dreamed up the overblown stadium design
5. When Herd walked away
6. When Kassam thought he knew how to run a football club but clearly didn't
7. When Kassam appointed.......(fill in any Kassam manager/director of football etc.
8. When Kassam sacked Atkins
9. When Kassam came up with the Diaz debacle
10. When WPL bought the club but not the stadium.
11. When Smith brought in the donkey derby & got us relegated
12. When Smith stayed on after last season
13. When Lenagan bought Wigan Warriors instead of sorting out Oxford Utd.
The real killer that set everything else in motion was the overblown stadium design and finance plan that Herd and Cox came up with. If that had been handled professionally and sensibly the club could have built a stadium for far less money, kept the balance of the proceeds of the Manor sale and would have had a new stadium in 1998 playing in what is now The Championship infront of 12 to 15,000 every week.
Where did it all go wrong?
No single point but a long catalogue of disasters, here are my low-lights:
1. When Maxwell metaphorically jumped ship to Derby
2. When Maxwell literally jumped ship
3. When Herd & Cox dreamed up the fantasy stadium finance package
4. When Herd & Cox dreamed up the overblown stadium design
5. When Herd walked away
6. When Kassam thought he knew how to run a football club but clearly didn't
7. When Kassam appointed.......(fill in any Kassam manager/director of football etc.
8. When Kassam sacked Atkins
9. When Kassam came up with the Diaz debacle
10. When WPL bought the club but not the stadium.
11. When Smith brought in the donkey derby & got us relegated
12. When Smith stayed on after last season
13. When Lenagan bought Wigan Warriors instead of sorting out Oxford Utd.
The real killer that set everything else in motion was the overblown stadium design and finance plan that Herd and Cox came up with. If that had been handled professionally and sensibly the club could have built a stadium for far less money, kept the balance of the proceeds of the Manor sale and would have had a new stadium in 1998 playing in what is now The Championship infront of 12 to 15,000 every week.
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Pe├▒a Oxford United
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I've always felt that the strength of English football is its depth. In response to people who don't think it matters unless it's Chelsea v Manchester United, I've tended to say that the most important match to a fan is whichever one their team is playing, and that this makes a fourth tier game potentially just as engrossing as the aforementioned "mouthwatering" tie.
At the same time, I couldn't claim that if you go to, say, Abingdon Town, everybody thinks that they're watching the match of the day. So I've tended to ask myself where the line was drawn, where - very roughly - people stopped feeling that no other match was as important to them as the one they were at. And my answer, based on watching quite a lot of football at quite a lot of different levels, has for some years been "about halfway down the Conference".
So from this point of view, we're now regularly playing, and for that matter regularly losing to, teams whose fans don't think it's all that important. Playing games which are just something to watch, not all that important really.
So as far as I'm concerned, there isn't a proper football team in Oxford any more. We're crossed a line, going downwards, and become something different to what we were.
This isn't an answer to Dan's question, of course, unless the answer be "who cares?".
At the same time, I couldn't claim that if you go to, say, Abingdon Town, everybody thinks that they're watching the match of the day. So I've tended to ask myself where the line was drawn, where - very roughly - people stopped feeling that no other match was as important to them as the one they were at. And my answer, based on watching quite a lot of football at quite a lot of different levels, has for some years been "about halfway down the Conference".
So from this point of view, we're now regularly playing, and for that matter regularly losing to, teams whose fans don't think it's all that important. Playing games which are just something to watch, not all that important really.
So as far as I'm concerned, there isn't a proper football team in Oxford any more. We're crossed a line, going downwards, and become something different to what we were.
This isn't an answer to Dan's question, of course, unless the answer be "who cares?".
entirely disenchanted
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Ascension Ox
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Re:
Easy to give up though isn't it. Particularly if you live in Spain."Peña Oxford United" wrote:I've always felt that the strength of English football is its depth. In response to people who don't think it matters unless it's Chelsea v Manchester United, I've tended to say that the most important match to a fan is whichever one their team is playing, and that this makes a fourth tier game potentially just as engrossing as the aforementioned "mouthwatering" tie.
At the same time, I couldn't claim that if you go to, say, Abingdon Town, everybody thinks that they're watching the match of the day. So I've tended to ask myself where the line was drawn, where - very roughly - people stopped feeling that no other match was as important to them as the one they were at. And my answer, based on watching quite a lot of football at quite a lot of different levels, has for some years been "about halfway down the Conference".
So from this point of view, we're now regularly playing, and for that matter regularly losing to, teams whose fans don't think it's all that important. Playing games which are just something to watch, not all that important really.
So as far as I'm concerned, there isn't a proper football team in Oxford any more. We're crossed a line, going downwards, and become something different to what we were.
This isn't an answer to Dan's question, of course, unless the answer be "who cares?".
If everybody shared your view we may as well give up and talk about chess all day. There can be a proper football club in Oxfordshire. Whatever doofuses there may be around currently on and off pitch.
The club has some great supporters. Still. I saw nearly 500 of them yesterday.
.
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Myles Francis
- Mid-life Crisis
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- Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 3:17 pm
Re:
That observation is borne out by the blurb regarding yesterday's matchball sponsor. The chap has supported Crawley for (if I recall correctly) 40 years, but is also a supporter of Brighton and Arsenal. I'd hazard a guess that this translates as: he follows Arsenal on the telly, follows Brighton's results because they are Sussex's league club, and turns up to watch Crawley because they are just round the corner."Peña Oxford United" wrote:And my answer, based on watching quite a lot of football at quite a lot of different levels, has for some years been "about halfway down the Conference".
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Pe├▒a Oxford United
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Re:
No, it's quite hard for a lot of people."Ascension Ox" wrote:Easy to give up though isn't it. Particularly if you live in Spain.
Well, that's roughly what I've done. I've put really quite a number of years of thought and energy into supporting Oxford United and I imagine the scarf round my neck is likely to be the only one in Aragón this winter. But my interest was always in watching a professional football club playing against other professional football clubs and thirteenth in the Conference is not really an emotionally engaging prospect."Ascension Ox" wrote:If everybody shared your view we may as well give up and talk about chess all day.
entirely disenchanted
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John Byrne's Underpants
- Puberty
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Re:
I'm not a big believer in these sorts of things but I must admit Im beginning to wonder if there's any truth in it. How much more 'bad luck' can this club take?"Snake" wrote:14. When the Gypsy got ripped off by Kassam
I can't see how this season can be salvaged but another year in the Conference doesn't bear thinking about.
Where do we go from here?
Re:
I must admit I'm seriously questioning why I still go to games as none of the original reasons are valid anymore. No skill, no excitment, no chance of promotion, no atmosphere. At the moment I'm going along out of a sense of habit and because I've got a season ticket but I'm not sure I'll have one next year for the first time in over a decade."Peña Oxford United" wrote:No, it's quite hard for a lot of people."Ascension Ox" wrote:Easy to give up though isn't it. Particularly if you live in Spain.
Well, that's roughly what I've done. I've put really quite a number of years of thought and energy into supporting Oxford United and I imagine the scarf round my neck is likely to be the only one in Aragón this winter. But my interest was always in watching a professional football club playing against other professional football clubs and thirteenth in the Conference is not really an emotionally engaging prospect."Ascension Ox" wrote:If everybody shared your view we may as well give up and talk about chess all day.
It won't need everybody to give up going to send the club spiralling into decline. My guess is if average attendance drops to below 3000 next season then the club can't continue to survive in it's current form and certainly can't afford to play at Minchery Farm.
As it stands I won't be renewing my season ticket as I just don't get any enjoyment out of watching what, after ten almost completely unrelenting years, seems to be an inevitable decline into oblivion.
It hasn't helped my demeanour that bloody Radio Oxford have twice in the last week replayed the commentary of last seasons' playoff semi second leg, the culmination of a campaign where we managed to chuck away every single golden chance of a return to league 2 that came our way.
It seems you can stop the Ball of Decline from rolling for a bit (Atkins did it, Diaz sort of did it, Smith did it for half a season) but eventually it picks up momentum again. And this is the cycle we find ourselves in.
I hope the transfer window now open provides some crumbs of hope. Because bloody hell we need something to hold on to, however tenuous the thread.
It hasn't helped my demeanour that bloody Radio Oxford have twice in the last week replayed the commentary of last seasons' playoff semi second leg, the culmination of a campaign where we managed to chuck away every single golden chance of a return to league 2 that came our way.
It seems you can stop the Ball of Decline from rolling for a bit (Atkins did it, Diaz sort of did it, Smith did it for half a season) but eventually it picks up momentum again. And this is the cycle we find ourselves in.
I hope the transfer window now open provides some crumbs of hope. Because bloody hell we need something to hold on to, however tenuous the thread.
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Pe├▒a Oxford United
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To try and answer the original questions:
i) I think the club has been run for about twenty years by people who - for varying reasons and in varying ways - haven't really been very interested in the on-pitch performance of the club. There have been many clubs who have had much worse chairmen at one time or another, but I think it is really hard for there to be any enthusiasm in any organisation where the people who are in charge don't show any lasting signs of it. Obviously the worst in this regard were Kevin Maxwell and Firoz Kassam but it applies to most of the others too. (Robin Herd was the exception, but perhaps also an exception who proved that just being an exception isn't enough.
It's not a "pouring money into the club he's supported since he was a boy" question, it's a "caring what happens and working to make it happen" question.
Obviously it doesn't help that at least three individuals, or sets of individuals, have taken decisions which have left the club crippled for long periods of time (the Maxwells and the debt, Cox/Herd and the stadium, Kassam ditto).
ii) well, the club can certainly get relegated at least once more, or it can announce that full-time professionalism can no longer be afforded, which would presumably the consequence of relegation anyway. The end of professionalism is the end of the club.
iii) maybe either we have to talk about changes of ownership again or somehow Wigan have to become a less enticing prospect than a Conference football club. Even if this were not so - we had a great opportunity to get out of non-league football at the first attempt last season. A ten-point lead with the division at its weakest for a long time. Even if the club were operating as it could, it wouldn't be a small thing to get back into the League.
iv) I don't know. We might, but this season has gone already and there are serious money problems looming. I very much doubt that the Oxford public are going to show much interest next season and that's the sort of situation where you need someone in charge who is going to want to work at it and stick at it.
i) I think the club has been run for about twenty years by people who - for varying reasons and in varying ways - haven't really been very interested in the on-pitch performance of the club. There have been many clubs who have had much worse chairmen at one time or another, but I think it is really hard for there to be any enthusiasm in any organisation where the people who are in charge don't show any lasting signs of it. Obviously the worst in this regard were Kevin Maxwell and Firoz Kassam but it applies to most of the others too. (Robin Herd was the exception, but perhaps also an exception who proved that just being an exception isn't enough.
It's not a "pouring money into the club he's supported since he was a boy" question, it's a "caring what happens and working to make it happen" question.
Obviously it doesn't help that at least three individuals, or sets of individuals, have taken decisions which have left the club crippled for long periods of time (the Maxwells and the debt, Cox/Herd and the stadium, Kassam ditto).
ii) well, the club can certainly get relegated at least once more, or it can announce that full-time professionalism can no longer be afforded, which would presumably the consequence of relegation anyway. The end of professionalism is the end of the club.
iii) maybe either we have to talk about changes of ownership again or somehow Wigan have to become a less enticing prospect than a Conference football club. Even if this were not so - we had a great opportunity to get out of non-league football at the first attempt last season. A ten-point lead with the division at its weakest for a long time. Even if the club were operating as it could, it wouldn't be a small thing to get back into the League.
iv) I don't know. We might, but this season has gone already and there are serious money problems looming. I very much doubt that the Oxford public are going to show much interest next season and that's the sort of situation where you need someone in charge who is going to want to work at it and stick at it.
Last edited by Pe├▒a Oxford United on Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
entirely disenchanted
I've missed more home league matches this season (missed five out of twelve so far, despite being a ST holder - d'oh) than in about the previous five or six seasons combined, and it hasn't really bothered me all that much. Despite being no stranger to watching non-league matches (hell, I went to see Sandhurst v Newport Pagnall in an early cup round this season), I do agree with Pena that it starts to become more and more difficult to care in the same way at this level. I wouldn't actually have guessed that this would be the case until I experienced it, but it does seem to have become so.
I have a choice between seeing The Go Team! at the Zodiac and Cambridge at home later this season, and I'm seriously in doubt as to which one to go to. This wouldn't have been the case until recently.
I have a choice between seeing The Go Team! at the Zodiac and Cambridge at home later this season, and I'm seriously in doubt as to which one to go to. This wouldn't have been the case until recently.