The opening post has sadly gone, but I'll leave the rest of the topic as there's some interesting stuff. Sorry GY.
Ed.
From memory, it went something like:
Disappointing set of results today.
As we still have a chance of making the play offs, I don't want to get into a debate about Wilder at this stage and that should be left until the end of the season.
When we do review the season we need to take into account that Wilder hasn't had the full 55% player budget, and that is to his credit to some degree, and we need to find out what our club is spending the money on which prevents us using the full budget whilst working at no worse than break even.
Can't remember the rest. GY
Argyle
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GodalmingYellow
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Argyle
Last edited by GodalmingYellow on Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
My Argyle stuff
http://www.rageonline.co.uk ... ws_id=3121
http://www.rageonline.co.uk ... ws_id=3121
17 draws, and almost as many forwards used this season, sums it up for me.
Our management team comprises an ex-stodgy fullback, an ex-central defender, and an ex-stocky no-frills midfielder. It's no surprise to me that defensively, we've done fine. For the most part the only changes being as a result of injuries. It's settled, 43 goals conceded is a good record.
Up front, I can't even begin to try and remember all the permutations tried, and mostly failed. This stinks of a manager not being able to coach forwards, or having any attacking strategy. Strikers have been dropped in the game after they scored - hardly great for confidence. Players have vanished, been shipped out, dropped without reason. A cruel man would say this is a manager looking for scapegoats to cover up the fact he hasn't been able to sort the problem out himself. Our top scorer has 12 goals: that's fewer than Lee Mansell.
Wilder has always built his teams around grinding out results. When fans grumbled after we shut-up shop against a woeful Ebbsfleet, when we could have rattled in more goals - he said we should be grateful. It's his mentality.
Neilw's stat about goals scored/points accrued in first half vs second half also speaks volumes too.
We are a steady team, but nothing special. Which, given the resources made available throughout the season, is a serious case of under achievement.
Our management team comprises an ex-stodgy fullback, an ex-central defender, and an ex-stocky no-frills midfielder. It's no surprise to me that defensively, we've done fine. For the most part the only changes being as a result of injuries. It's settled, 43 goals conceded is a good record.
Up front, I can't even begin to try and remember all the permutations tried, and mostly failed. This stinks of a manager not being able to coach forwards, or having any attacking strategy. Strikers have been dropped in the game after they scored - hardly great for confidence. Players have vanished, been shipped out, dropped without reason. A cruel man would say this is a manager looking for scapegoats to cover up the fact he hasn't been able to sort the problem out himself. Our top scorer has 12 goals: that's fewer than Lee Mansell.
Wilder has always built his teams around grinding out results. When fans grumbled after we shut-up shop against a woeful Ebbsfleet, when we could have rattled in more goals - he said we should be grateful. It's his mentality.
Neilw's stat about goals scored/points accrued in first half vs second half also speaks volumes too.
We are a steady team, but nothing special. Which, given the resources made available throughout the season, is a serious case of under achievement.
Re:
I thought we'd just about established, if that was possible, that we have about the 7th largest budget in this league and I hear that STFC have double our budget so to be in 8th position is hardly "a serious case of under achievement". Perhaps a very slight case of under achievement. But the season ain't quite over yet. Seems to be in many fan's head though."YF Dan" wrote: We are a steady team, but nothing special. Which, given the resources made available throughout the season, is a serious case of under achievement.
Re:
Not in mine."Baboo" wrote:Seems to be in many fan's head though.
Six points available. The two teams to beat are 3 (and a whole lotta goals) and four points ahead. Yes, it's out of our hands, which is a shame, but two wins for us would mean that they both have to get at least one win in their last two. Hardly impossible.
Right now, the team needs us. The boo boys can fuck off up the road and be plastic fans for the scum if they want promotion so badly.
Oxford till I die.
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GodalmingYellow
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Re:
I don't think we've established that we have the 7th largest budget at all."Baboo" wrote:I thought we'd just about established, if that was possible, that we have about the 7th largest budget in this league and I hear that STFC have double our budget so to be in 8th position is hardly "a serious case of under achievement". Perhaps a very slight case of under achievement. But the season ain't quite over yet. Seems to be in many fan's head though."YF Dan" wrote: We are a steady team, but nothing special. Which, given the resources made available throughout the season, is a serious case of under achievement.
However, it is clear that we have not spent our full 55% allowance on players, and that is the only element that remains in Wilder's favour.
Before we get on to Wilder, we need to understand what has prevented us spending our full player budget whilst still operating at break even. A not insignificant proportion of the explanation is rent and maintenance, but even given that, there must be significant others costs that OUFC expends, over and above other clubs, which is holding us back. And we can ignore the arrears of maintenance issue as that was a one off funded by Lenegan.
Even given all that, it is going to be difficult to get past YF Dan's conclusions, which I think are pretty close to the source of the problem.
Whilst we still have a chance of the play offs, Wilder and the team deserves are wholehearted support, after that we can do the soul searching.
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Ancient Colin
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Chicago, Chicago it's a hell of a business lounge.
13th on points lost. 17th on second half performance. These aren't functions of player budget, they are management and coaching issues. When these were pointed out in mid-season, those of us pointing them out were told they weren't significant, but they've really come home to roost, haven't they? And Wilder's been pretty much indulged when it comes to bringing in loan players - and not just in reaction to injury. I was playing with the BBC predictor and coming up with lots of scenarios where we still make the playoffs, but I'm no longer even able to convince myself that is a 100% good thing. There. I said it. And I didn't even mention throw ins.
Just as a footnote, I have renewed the season ticket. And I don't boo our players (although I have to admit to sighing quite a lot, oh yes and cursing at 95% of our throw ins - we might as well get Corcoran back to take them). Oh, I mentioned throw ins again.
13th on points lost. 17th on second half performance. These aren't functions of player budget, they are management and coaching issues. When these were pointed out in mid-season, those of us pointing them out were told they weren't significant, but they've really come home to roost, haven't they? And Wilder's been pretty much indulged when it comes to bringing in loan players - and not just in reaction to injury. I was playing with the BBC predictor and coming up with lots of scenarios where we still make the playoffs, but I'm no longer even able to convince myself that is a 100% good thing. There. I said it. And I didn't even mention throw ins.
Just as a footnote, I have renewed the season ticket. And I don't boo our players (although I have to admit to sighing quite a lot, oh yes and cursing at 95% of our throw ins - we might as well get Corcoran back to take them). Oh, I mentioned throw ins again.
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Joey's Toe
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Re:
On that specific point, Adam Chapman's return has been a big boost - I wonder how many more goals we'd have scored if we'd had him for the whole season."Baboo" wrote:It is hard not to keep coming back to throw-ins and free-kicks. We're crap at taking them and have been for years.
In general though, this thread seems a classic moany GY rant (sorry, GY). My view, for what it's worth:
- This year has been an exceptionally strong one for Division 4, with a greater-than-usual number of very good sides
- Our best starting XI is probably as good as anyone's in this division.
- Where we have been weak is strength in depth. For example, Duberry and Wright are an excellent CB partnership, but if they're injured then we're relying on the likes of Worley who just aren't quite good enough.
- We have played very well for periods of most games. What we haven't done is play well for LONG periods of most games. That's okay, and is fixable.
Personally, I won't be too sorry if we don't make the playoffs. If this team went up, they would come straight back down again. Far better for us to improve the squad in the summer (particularly the cover in key positions), find a full-time strike partner for Beano, and go again next year in Div 4. If we do, we'd stand a reasonable chance of promotion.
All this talk of budgets and resources is a red herring. Having a big stadium and big crowds does not (and should not) equate to success. Surely all those years in the Conference taught us that? You've got to build a decent squad, over time. We're doing that, we're making progress.
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Joey's Toe
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One other point - fully agreeing with YF Dan on the coahing of forwards - relates to Midson. If Wilder and his coaches were better at coaching forwards, then arguably they could have got the best out of Midson at this level (as AFC Wimbledon have managed) and we'd have scored a hatful more goals this season.
Moreover, having taken the decision to let Midson go, we never found the right foil for Beano. Maybe they thought Craddock was the answer, maybe not. Either way, it's the area which has cost us. In that respect, this summer is important - Wilder et al have to either find Beano the right partner, or settle on a new partnership. But we can't have another season of in-out-in-out-shakeitallabout loan signings (I suspect Wilder himself would agree with this).
Again though, I think that's a problem which is eminently repairable.
Moreover, having taken the decision to let Midson go, we never found the right foil for Beano. Maybe they thought Craddock was the answer, maybe not. Either way, it's the area which has cost us. In that respect, this summer is important - Wilder et al have to either find Beano the right partner, or settle on a new partnership. But we can't have another season of in-out-in-out-shakeitallabout loan signings (I suspect Wilder himself would agree with this).
Again though, I think that's a problem which is eminently repairable.
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JoeyBeauchamp
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To say that coaches and managers can't get the best out of forwards because they were defensive players is simplistic at best and displays a complete ignorance of football at worst. That is not the reason we have struggled up front.
The loan players are more of an issue - loans are vital for lower leagues clubs and can allow us to pick up the odd gem who would never otherwise come to us (cf Robbie Hall), but there is no doubt that we have had too many jobbing, couldn't-care-less players join us this season.
I would echo those saying that another year in L2 is not the end of the world. Fans demand instant success these days and we have no more of a right to be in a higher division than other 'big' clubs in Div 4 who won't be going up - Rotherham, Bristol Rovers, Gillingham, Bradford. But let's have this debate at the end of the season rather than give up now. Beat Southend, Crewe lose to Torquay, and it's back in our hands again.
The loan players are more of an issue - loans are vital for lower leagues clubs and can allow us to pick up the odd gem who would never otherwise come to us (cf Robbie Hall), but there is no doubt that we have had too many jobbing, couldn't-care-less players join us this season.
I would echo those saying that another year in L2 is not the end of the world. Fans demand instant success these days and we have no more of a right to be in a higher division than other 'big' clubs in Div 4 who won't be going up - Rotherham, Bristol Rovers, Gillingham, Bradford. But let's have this debate at the end of the season rather than give up now. Beat Southend, Crewe lose to Torquay, and it's back in our hands again.
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Myles Francis
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Sorry JB, but I don't see anybody who is demanding "instant success". Last season we found our feet fairly well in this division and for this season achieving automatic promotion was a realistic goal. Securing a play-off place, given the resources available, should be seen as minimum success criteria.
The saving grace for Wilder is that, yes, we have improved - more points, more goals, higher league placing than last year. But the question has to be asked, is that improvement enough to keep faith in his leadership? I'm undecided on this to be honest. My gut feeling is that (assuming we don't make the playoffs now), he should be given until December and if we aren't in or around the automatic promotion places, then it's time for the Spanish archer.
Picking up on a couple of Joey's Toe's points: the Midson issue has nothing to do with the coaching of forwards - it's a tactical one. Midson is a centre forward, not an "inside forward", and plays best in a 442. He flourished at Histon in that role, and has done the same at AFCW. Sticking him out wide would never bring a hatful of goals.
Strength in depth is a management issue too. It's down to the manager to assemble a squad which can cope with the rigours of the season. If a chunk of the budget is taken by a name signing at centre half (obviously there is an assumption here) then there is less to go round for "cover".
Loan players - far too much of a revolving door here. Yes, there has been a real gem in Hall, who we subsequently lost and there have been a couple of other decent acquisitions too but, again, how much of the budget is swallowed by here-today-gone-tomorrow loans?
Those that are saying that we are "better off" for another season in L2 are kind of missing the point. The only reason we would be better off is because we haven't got a squad that would be able to cope with L1 (without major investment) and, frankly, that highlights the biggest failure in Wilder's squad assembly. We SHOULD have a squad that is at least 75-80% able to make the step up.
The saving grace for Wilder is that, yes, we have improved - more points, more goals, higher league placing than last year. But the question has to be asked, is that improvement enough to keep faith in his leadership? I'm undecided on this to be honest. My gut feeling is that (assuming we don't make the playoffs now), he should be given until December and if we aren't in or around the automatic promotion places, then it's time for the Spanish archer.
Picking up on a couple of Joey's Toe's points: the Midson issue has nothing to do with the coaching of forwards - it's a tactical one. Midson is a centre forward, not an "inside forward", and plays best in a 442. He flourished at Histon in that role, and has done the same at AFCW. Sticking him out wide would never bring a hatful of goals.
Strength in depth is a management issue too. It's down to the manager to assemble a squad which can cope with the rigours of the season. If a chunk of the budget is taken by a name signing at centre half (obviously there is an assumption here) then there is less to go round for "cover".
Loan players - far too much of a revolving door here. Yes, there has been a real gem in Hall, who we subsequently lost and there have been a couple of other decent acquisitions too but, again, how much of the budget is swallowed by here-today-gone-tomorrow loans?
Those that are saying that we are "better off" for another season in L2 are kind of missing the point. The only reason we would be better off is because we haven't got a squad that would be able to cope with L1 (without major investment) and, frankly, that highlights the biggest failure in Wilder's squad assembly. We SHOULD have a squad that is at least 75-80% able to make the step up.
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Brahma Bull
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Wilder was appointed in the main because of his ability to work on a tight budget, which was essential to radically cut costs when there was no new money in the conference. He does this by finding unloved and unwanted and injury prone players.
At the start of this season, we have been told that the budget was increased by £170K, presumably Chris Wilder said this was what was needed to get a squad that could challenge for promotion.
On top of that (I think), the player budget was exceeded by £140K, I think this was the cost of bringing in the loan players to cover injuries.
I can see that we have a core squad, supplemented by loans. But the key question is why we aren't scoring more goals. (although Torquay don't seem too bothered winning 1-0).
At the start of this season, we have been told that the budget was increased by £170K, presumably Chris Wilder said this was what was needed to get a squad that could challenge for promotion.
On top of that (I think), the player budget was exceeded by £140K, I think this was the cost of bringing in the loan players to cover injuries.
I can see that we have a core squad, supplemented by loans. But the key question is why we aren't scoring more goals. (although Torquay don't seem too bothered winning 1-0).
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GodalmingYellow
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Re:
I really don't mind JT, except that I haven't even started ranting yet"Joey's Toe" wrote:On that specific point, Adam Chapman's return has been a big boost - I wonder how many more goals we'd have scored if we'd had him for the whole season."Baboo" wrote:It is hard not to keep coming back to throw-ins and free-kicks. We're crap at taking them and have been for years.
In general though, this thread seems a classic moany GY rant (sorry, GY). My view, for what it's worth:
- This year has been an exceptionally strong one for Division 4, with a greater-than-usual number of very good sides
- Our best starting XI is probably as good as anyone's in this division.
- Where we have been weak is strength in depth. For example, Duberry and Wright are an excellent CB partnership, but if they're injured then we're relying on the likes of Worley who just aren't quite good enough.
- We have played very well for periods of most games. What we haven't done is play well for LONG periods of most games. That's okay, and is fixable.
Personally, I won't be too sorry if we don't make the playoffs. If this team went up, they would come straight back down again. Far better for us to improve the squad in the summer (particularly the cover in key positions), find a full-time strike partner for Beano, and go again next year in Div 4. If we do, we'd stand a reasonable chance of promotion.
All this talk of budgets and resources is a red herring. Having a big stadium and big crowds does not (and should not) equate to success. Surely all those years in the Conference taught us that? You've got to build a decent squad, over time. We're doing that, we're making progress.
At this stage I just want to give the club and Wilder every chance to make the play offs whilst we still can so it is counter productive to do anything other than be supportive for now.
I'm just trying to identify the reasons why we have apparently fallen short on and off the pitch this season, before reaching post season conclusions.