I actually managed to get to the reserve game on Monday (which is the first time in a long while that I’ve seen the fringe/youth players in action), so I thought I’d post up a few comments about the players on show – perhaps others that were there might want to chip in as well?
For a number of reasons, it was a difficult game to judge players from as the Oxford line-up was decidedly makeshift with no senior players available to add experience and leadership, three or four of the youth teamers out for the season and adopting a 352 formation, all of which meant a number of players were playing in unfamiliar positions.
I have to admit that no-one really stood out as a must-pick for the firsts, in fact one or two rather disappointed, but there were some positive signs.
The two best players were both first-year seniors. Beechers looked more assured than most, created chances against a (very) solid defence and did go on an excellent run early in the second half while captain Andy Gunn looked confident and solid, particularly in the air. Both showed enough to suggest they would not let down the seniors if called upon, if not yet ready for regular starts. The other graduate, Josh Kennett, looked very slight, fairly ineffectual and did not put such a good case forward for himself.
Of the scholars, striker Alex Fisher (called up to the bench vrs Lewes) is tall and quick and won plenty in the air, but is again quite slight and maybe needs a bit of time yet. In midfield, seldom-mentioned Daniel Meade was probably my other pick of the night as he was solid, energetic and had a lot of good ideas, while Chris Weedon (normally a fullback) made a number of good challenges. At the back Tommy Franklin and James Clarke both did well alongside Gunn, looking solid and between them kept a wily forward line fairly quiet for much of the game. At wing-back Andrew Younie and Aaron Gonzalez both proved they are not wing-backs, the former having a particularly disappointing bad night (although their senior colleagues are proving how difficult a position this is to play in, so perhaps we cannot expect too much from guys still learning their own positions).
The great shame as I see it is that although this crop are only a couple of wins away from claiming the league title at youth level, most graduate this summer at barely 18, which I think is a year too soon to really make a final call on the future of most young players.
It is a question therefore as to whether we can (or want to) continue to make room in the senior squad (as we have this season) to carry the best two or three for a year to allow them to continue their development without expecting them to be first team regulars. I hope we can, but I just hope that Jim & Nick agree...
Youth Watch
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Matt D
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thanks mooro, that's very interesting.
i, as i imagine most fans are, am keen to see our youth players pushing through to appearances for the first team. but this is more from a general opinion that seeing players who have grown up in the area and been brought on by the club come through the ranks is A Good Thing, rather than an informed view from watching these players.
i wondered, given that you've expressed disappointment at the seeming reluctance of jim smith to play these youngsters, whether this performance leads you to sympathise with his position more, or whether you still think gunn, kennet, beechers etc. should have been given more of a chance so far this season?
i, as i imagine most fans are, am keen to see our youth players pushing through to appearances for the first team. but this is more from a general opinion that seeing players who have grown up in the area and been brought on by the club come through the ranks is A Good Thing, rather than an informed view from watching these players.
i wondered, given that you've expressed disappointment at the seeming reluctance of jim smith to play these youngsters, whether this performance leads you to sympathise with his position more, or whether you still think gunn, kennet, beechers etc. should have been given more of a chance so far this season?
I accept that I have generally been slightly out on a limb demanding the inclusion of players I've barely seen, but I think a lot of that stems from the same principle of wanting to see youngsters who we as a club have put in so much time and effort bringing through suddenly coming up against a brick wall of stubbornness at this last stage - something that has certainly been the case under a number of managers in the past (eg Atkins).
My fear comes partly from seeing him (and others) be quick to dismiss players who I was able to see a lot of (eg King) despite them seeming (and subsequently proving) more than good enough and partly from noticing that very very few apprentices went on to become regular fixtures in Smith's sides when he was here before. Smith has also not helped calm my fears by his many "..just look at the bench..." type comments in recent weeks.
Of course they are not going to walk into the first team, I just feel that they could be afforded more opportunities to integrate into the senior setup by coming off the bench in games that are "safe" or maybe starting in the Trophy games to give some of the seniors a rest.
I would have thought that giving the three lads that sort of experience would be a better judge of their potential suitability for "stepping up when needed" in the first team than a game like Monday night, as they could just concentrate on doing their own job alongside experienced seniors who could provide guidance where needed, rather than having to try to do their own jobs and carry younger players as well.
All that said, and coming back to your question - based purely on Monday night, I would say that Beechers and Gunn would not let the side down if called up into the first team, whereas Kennett looked a little lightweight and ineffectual, but with better players alongside him, then who knows.
Of the youth teamers themselves, Franklin looked comfortable and is probably the brightest hope of that group and there was something about Danny Meade which I liked, although whether he could step up just yet I would doubt..
My fear comes partly from seeing him (and others) be quick to dismiss players who I was able to see a lot of (eg King) despite them seeming (and subsequently proving) more than good enough and partly from noticing that very very few apprentices went on to become regular fixtures in Smith's sides when he was here before. Smith has also not helped calm my fears by his many "..just look at the bench..." type comments in recent weeks.
Of course they are not going to walk into the first team, I just feel that they could be afforded more opportunities to integrate into the senior setup by coming off the bench in games that are "safe" or maybe starting in the Trophy games to give some of the seniors a rest.
I would have thought that giving the three lads that sort of experience would be a better judge of their potential suitability for "stepping up when needed" in the first team than a game like Monday night, as they could just concentrate on doing their own job alongside experienced seniors who could provide guidance where needed, rather than having to try to do their own jobs and carry younger players as well.
All that said, and coming back to your question - based purely on Monday night, I would say that Beechers and Gunn would not let the side down if called up into the first team, whereas Kennett looked a little lightweight and ineffectual, but with better players alongside him, then who knows.
Of the youth teamers themselves, Franklin looked comfortable and is probably the brightest hope of that group and there was something about Danny Meade which I liked, although whether he could step up just yet I would doubt..
To add to what Mooro said (I was sat next to him, and shared his analysis), I think that the goalie, Gareth Tucker, could well become a more regular feature on the bench. Difficult to say on the 20 mins he had on Monday whether or not he's any cop, but the signs are that Tardif is likely to be on his way either during the window, on loan later in the season, and almost certainly at the end of the season, and so I reckon they'll try and give Tucker more of a taste of the first team as they blood him as Tards' successor.
It should also be said that, although Mooro's analysis is a tad pessimistic regarding the youngsters coming through, all three of the long-term injured youngsters - Luke Bennett, Ben Weedon and David Malloy - have been touted as likely to break through at some stage in the next couple of seasons. Of course, there's no telling how badly their injuries are going to set them back, but perhaps it's not as bleak as it might be otherwise.
It should also be said that, although Mooro's analysis is a tad pessimistic regarding the youngsters coming through, all three of the long-term injured youngsters - Luke Bennett, Ben Weedon and David Malloy - have been touted as likely to break through at some stage in the next couple of seasons. Of course, there's no telling how badly their injuries are going to set them back, but perhaps it's not as bleak as it might be otherwise.
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A-Ro
- Grumpy old git
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Re:
They wouldn't have seen much action since the middle of November then would they?"Mooro" wrote:Of course they are not going to walk into the first team, I just feel that they could be afforded more opportunities to integrate into the senior setup by coming off the bench in games that are "safe"
…which is why I was suggesting at the time that it was a good idea to be doing so when we were doing OK, so that they weren’t having to come in cold when things weren’t so good.
As for Boris’ point, don't get me wrong, I think this is an incredibly taleneted bunch of youngsters who are storming the youth league this season (against some clubs whose senior sides are two divisions above us) which is no mean feat. I know Les and Darren speak highly of many of them and even up against it on Monday you could see there was a lot of potential in a number of cases.
My worry (and pessimism if you like) comes from the fact that the current English system dictates that scholarships only last two years, so the make or break decision comes at 18, which for many of them is this summer.
This, in my opinion, is too early in the majority of cases (apart from the Rooneys of this world) if all you are looking for is someone who is ready to play the whole season for the first team (which is the way many managers now look at it).
However, I'm hoping that the current management can see the longer term benefits of ring-fencing a small amount from the capped wage bill each year to allow a number of them to spend at least a year with the pros after they graduate (as three of them have this year) to enable them to continue their development and hopefully make the step up into the first team within that season or the next.
The question is whether adopting this approach each year, which may prove fruitless some years, but may equally deliver 2 or 3 players who are able to make the step up to first team standard in others, will prove more beneficial over time than signing one more reserve player. (At a guess this year's trio are earning roughly the same between them as the likes of Dempster or Day).
Prior to the wage cap system, clubs could make such a policy decision and fund it in addition to the main squad budget, but now I suspect it all has to come out of the same pot, which makes it a tougher call.
For me I would say it is worth it, from a squad numbers perspective as well as a community one and of course may unearth a couple of late developing gems that make a real impact and/or sell for a tidy amount, but we'll have to see whether Merry and Jim agree.
As for Boris’ point, don't get me wrong, I think this is an incredibly taleneted bunch of youngsters who are storming the youth league this season (against some clubs whose senior sides are two divisions above us) which is no mean feat. I know Les and Darren speak highly of many of them and even up against it on Monday you could see there was a lot of potential in a number of cases.
My worry (and pessimism if you like) comes from the fact that the current English system dictates that scholarships only last two years, so the make or break decision comes at 18, which for many of them is this summer.
This, in my opinion, is too early in the majority of cases (apart from the Rooneys of this world) if all you are looking for is someone who is ready to play the whole season for the first team (which is the way many managers now look at it).
However, I'm hoping that the current management can see the longer term benefits of ring-fencing a small amount from the capped wage bill each year to allow a number of them to spend at least a year with the pros after they graduate (as three of them have this year) to enable them to continue their development and hopefully make the step up into the first team within that season or the next.
The question is whether adopting this approach each year, which may prove fruitless some years, but may equally deliver 2 or 3 players who are able to make the step up to first team standard in others, will prove more beneficial over time than signing one more reserve player. (At a guess this year's trio are earning roughly the same between them as the likes of Dempster or Day).
Prior to the wage cap system, clubs could make such a policy decision and fund it in addition to the main squad budget, but now I suspect it all has to come out of the same pot, which makes it a tougher call.
For me I would say it is worth it, from a squad numbers perspective as well as a community one and of course may unearth a couple of late developing gems that make a real impact and/or sell for a tidy amount, but we'll have to see whether Merry and Jim agree.
I don’t watch the Youth Team so I’ll like to ask Mooro some questions please, if that’s ok.
How do you think Patto’s team will cope against Ardley United in the OSC, assuming we rest the first team for this one?
Do you think the team would like the game to be played at the home of Didcot Town, Milton United, Oxford City or Oxford United?
Did Nick Merry play for them?
How do you think Patto’s team will cope against Ardley United in the OSC, assuming we rest the first team for this one?
Do you think the team would like the game to be played at the home of Didcot Town, Milton United, Oxford City or Oxford United?
Did Nick Merry play for them?
Ardley are currently 2nd in the Hellenic (four levels below Us).
Gunn and Beechers have been on loan at Didcot and Oxford City, both one level higher than that, and by all accounts have down well at that level. Tucker has also spent much of the season at Kidlington, who are also in the hellenic.
I would say that in general they'll be fine, though I think adding just a couple of seniors to add a bit of experience and organisation and I would be reasonably confident.
So, to address your underlying "...just as we finally get rid of cup compy we don't need, another one lands on our doorstep..." mood, no we do not need to play our first team in this game/tournament to have a good chance of progressing.
That of course, may not stop Jimbo "..three of our players have been felled by snipers, but I still trust them to outperform the youth team.." Smith from forcing Gilly and the other OAPs to play another game.
Gunn and Beechers have been on loan at Didcot and Oxford City, both one level higher than that, and by all accounts have down well at that level. Tucker has also spent much of the season at Kidlington, who are also in the hellenic.
I would say that in general they'll be fine, though I think adding just a couple of seniors to add a bit of experience and organisation and I would be reasonably confident.
So, to address your underlying "...just as we finally get rid of cup compy we don't need, another one lands on our doorstep..." mood, no we do not need to play our first team in this game/tournament to have a good chance of progressing.
That of course, may not stop Jimbo "..three of our players have been felled by snipers, but I still trust them to outperform the youth team.." Smith from forcing Gilly and the other OAPs to play another game.
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Resurrection Ox
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Re:
I sense Snake is taking the pee actually."Mooro" wrote:Ardley are currently 2nd in the Hellenic (four levels below Us).
Gunn and Beechers have been on loan at Didcot and Oxford City, both one level higher than that, and by all accounts have down well at that level. Tucker has also spent much of the season at Kidlington, who are also in the hellenic.
I would say that in general they'll be fine, though I think adding just a couple of seniors to add a bit of experience and organisation and I would be reasonably confident.
So, to address your underlying "...just as we finally get rid of cup compy we don't need, another one lands on our doorstep..." mood, no we do not need to play our first team in this game/tournament to have a good chance of progressing.
That of course, may not stop Jimbo "..three of our players have been felled by snipers, but I still trust them to outperform the youth team.." Smith from forcing Gilly and the other OAPs to play another game.
In the not so recent past we’ve always disregarded the Oxfordshire Senior Cup as a nonsense competition and consistently played under-strength sides, which is fair enough.
However, I do think OUR team of potential stars should be given the opportunity of a half-proper game at the Kassam Stadium, with the incentive that if they win it they may get another one later in the competition..
In the past one of the reasons touted for going to Court Place Farm to play in this tournament was the fact that the (newish) turf at the Kassam needed time to settle in for a few seasons. Another reason trotted out was that it was uneconomic to host such a game at Minchery Farm - but hey, we have a different Chairman now and if he doesn’t understand the motivation involved with letting the youngsters play at the home of Oxford United then I don’t know who does. Buying drinks for fans and giving out comps at the away turnstiles is one thing, but properly supporting our future is another.
And besides, throw in free entry (and that’s not impossible under the Senior Cup rules) or pay a quid on the gate and we could even beat the attendance for the Final a couple of years ago.
All in all it might make a few of our up-and-coming players feel a bit more valued and attached to Oxford United Football Club.
I hope that at least some of that posting makes sense.
However, I do think OUR team of potential stars should be given the opportunity of a half-proper game at the Kassam Stadium, with the incentive that if they win it they may get another one later in the competition..
In the past one of the reasons touted for going to Court Place Farm to play in this tournament was the fact that the (newish) turf at the Kassam needed time to settle in for a few seasons. Another reason trotted out was that it was uneconomic to host such a game at Minchery Farm - but hey, we have a different Chairman now and if he doesn’t understand the motivation involved with letting the youngsters play at the home of Oxford United then I don’t know who does. Buying drinks for fans and giving out comps at the away turnstiles is one thing, but properly supporting our future is another.
And besides, throw in free entry (and that’s not impossible under the Senior Cup rules) or pay a quid on the gate and we could even beat the attendance for the Final a couple of years ago.
All in all it might make a few of our up-and-coming players feel a bit more valued and attached to Oxford United Football Club.
I hope that at least some of that posting makes sense.
LAst time I looked the three definate home dates were:
Tonight vrs Luton
Next Monday vrs Colchester
Mon March 19th vrs Stevenage
tho I suppose you can add to that the OSC tie vrs Ardley on Weds 21st Feb as well.
I think there is at least one other outstanding home game to be played as well.
I would expect a somewhat youthful side for the Stevenage game, as this is the only midweek in March without a league game)
Tonight vrs Luton
Next Monday vrs Colchester
Mon March 19th vrs Stevenage
tho I suppose you can add to that the OSC tie vrs Ardley on Weds 21st Feb as well.
I think there is at least one other outstanding home game to be played as well.
I would expect a somewhat youthful side for the Stevenage game, as this is the only midweek in March without a league game)
Stronger side last night (alledgedly) but I'll still focus on the young players first.
Gunn played at right back alongside three triallists, but again looked solid, made a few key challenges and generally showed that he can play here as well as in the middle. Growing in stature and confidence.
Kennett played the first half in centre midfield with Burgess, then got shifted to LM at half time and was subbed on the hour. As last time, didnt do anything to catch the eye, which given that he was alongside Burgess on a cold Monday night in didcot maybe tells its own story.
Tucker played the whole game in goal and did OK, though kicking was not spectacular. Nothing much to do all night and had no chance with the goal. Difficult to judge overall.
Franklin came on at half time at centre back and did a perfectly competent job and did not look out of place.
Beechers came on for Kennett and played behind the front two. There is something likeable about him in terms of making things happen. Created a few chances with decent runs, often down the right.
Danny Meade came on for Coombs on the right of midfield, tho as he was on the far side of the pitch I couldnt really judge what he was doing or how well he did.
Overall, I'd say Gunn and Beechers could be worth another year in the seniors, although it was noticeable that amidst all of the things that BB did it was the one occasion that he gave the ball away that prompted Smith to stir and burble something (though it could just have been a snore). Sadly, Kennett is not making the impression I think he needs to in order to get another year.
Of the current scholars that played last night, Tucker has a good chance of a senior shot, especially if one of the main two keepers is released to help the budget. First year Sam Worrell is also well thought of, so they may be able to share the back-up role between them next season. Franklin is doing enough to warrant at least a year with the seniors along with Tucker, while Meade may be worth a gamble as well, not least due to his versatility.
Of the senior players last night, Grebis had one of those games where he just needed one chance to go in and he'd be away. To his credit, he didnt let his head drop. Marvin had a nothing game really, he kept dropping deep but did not make much of an impression when he did get the ball.
Burgess never really got into the game, beyond a few flicks and together with Kennett did little to control the midfield. Coombs on the right was busy, without standing out.
Johnson played LM first half and LB second and probably showed better than most of his senior colleagues. He was winning challenges and running with the ball and played a few decent passes, so perhaps an alternative to Rose at LM.
No comments on the triallists as they did little worthy of comment.
Gunn played at right back alongside three triallists, but again looked solid, made a few key challenges and generally showed that he can play here as well as in the middle. Growing in stature and confidence.
Kennett played the first half in centre midfield with Burgess, then got shifted to LM at half time and was subbed on the hour. As last time, didnt do anything to catch the eye, which given that he was alongside Burgess on a cold Monday night in didcot maybe tells its own story.
Tucker played the whole game in goal and did OK, though kicking was not spectacular. Nothing much to do all night and had no chance with the goal. Difficult to judge overall.
Franklin came on at half time at centre back and did a perfectly competent job and did not look out of place.
Beechers came on for Kennett and played behind the front two. There is something likeable about him in terms of making things happen. Created a few chances with decent runs, often down the right.
Danny Meade came on for Coombs on the right of midfield, tho as he was on the far side of the pitch I couldnt really judge what he was doing or how well he did.
Overall, I'd say Gunn and Beechers could be worth another year in the seniors, although it was noticeable that amidst all of the things that BB did it was the one occasion that he gave the ball away that prompted Smith to stir and burble something (though it could just have been a snore). Sadly, Kennett is not making the impression I think he needs to in order to get another year.
Of the current scholars that played last night, Tucker has a good chance of a senior shot, especially if one of the main two keepers is released to help the budget. First year Sam Worrell is also well thought of, so they may be able to share the back-up role between them next season. Franklin is doing enough to warrant at least a year with the seniors along with Tucker, while Meade may be worth a gamble as well, not least due to his versatility.
Of the senior players last night, Grebis had one of those games where he just needed one chance to go in and he'd be away. To his credit, he didnt let his head drop. Marvin had a nothing game really, he kept dropping deep but did not make much of an impression when he did get the ball.
Burgess never really got into the game, beyond a few flicks and together with Kennett did little to control the midfield. Coombs on the right was busy, without standing out.
Johnson played LM first half and LB second and probably showed better than most of his senior colleagues. He was winning challenges and running with the ball and played a few decent passes, so perhaps an alternative to Rose at LM.
No comments on the triallists as they did little worthy of comment.