Interesting campaign

[Joey's Toe]

Apologies if it's been posted elsewhere before, but it's interesting to read about Scunthorpe's campaign to keep their terracing.

Next season , they'll be forced to redevelop the terraced parts of the ground under Championshi* regulations - even though their fans clearly want the terrace to stay, and to redevelop it would reduce their already-tiny capacity.

It's no unlike the scenario we'd have faced if we'd stayed at the Manor in the Championshi*, so I have every sympathy with their campaign. Isn't it about time that the relevant authorities encouraged safe standing areas (as in Germany) rather than continue this rather myopic opposition to them?

(also interesting to read about Leicester City's humourless response to a solidarity campaign from their own supporters)

[Baboo]

Isn't it about time that the relevant authorities encouraged safe standing areas (as in Germany) rather than continue this rather myopic opposition to them?)

Yes.
Will it happen - No.

[Joey's Toe]

Isn't it about time that the relevant authorities encouraged safe standing areas (as in Germany) rather than continue this rather myopic opposition to them?

Yes.
Will it happen - No.

Well, that's that resolved then. Topic closed.

Got a two-line response to solve the Middle East crisis while we're at it?

[Baboo]

[

Got a two-line response to solve the Middle East crisis while we're at it?

No

[Kernow Yellow]

Isn't it about time that the relevant authorities encouraged safe standing areas (as in Germany) rather than continue this rather myopic opposition to them?)

Yes.
Will it happen - No.

Well it won't happen if everyone has that attitude! While I tend to agree with you that campaigning for safe terracing is a bit like banging your head against a brick wall (or banging your shins against a plastic seat back), it's a campaign I fully support.

I still dream of a terrace at the West End of our ground, and only a change of attitude throughout football will make it happen.

[Dr Bob]

Leicester City's response that the banner was &quottoo political&quot is absurd - but surely they are right to see this as a political issue. I seem to recall a couple of major stadium disasters in South Africa in recent years seeing multiple deaths caused by panic and stampedes in all seater stadia (which hinder easy exit), let alone the positive examples for terracing from places such as Germany, mentioned already.

But 96 people did not die at Hillsborough because of terracing, nor was the decree of all-seater stadia anything other than the opportunity for MT to impose social control on football supporters. Until (well, OK, unless) the issue of all seater stadia is seen for what it really is, there never will be any chance of real change in the policy.

[Joey's Toe]

Leicester City's response that the banner was &quottoo political&quot is absurd - but surely they are right to see this as a political issue.

Eh?

To me, what's ridiculous is that football supporters shouldn't be able to make a 'political' statement - fine, the club might not want you to unveil a banner slagging off the Chairman etc, but what's wrong with a banner supporting a fans' campaign, or even a banner which criticised the police or expressed support for a political campaign? Only in Britain is this conception of 'politics' (which I would suggest is actually more akin to 'civic engagement') a dirty word.

In other countries - Italy in particular - politics and football (and, for that matter, politics and lots of other elements of life) go hand in hand. Only in the UK could something like this be wrongly and pathetically construed as politically dangerous.

Anyway, I digress.

Bob and KY are absolutely right IMHO to say that the wider issue of terracing has been hijacked by all sorts of individuals and groups who have little or no idea about football at the lower end of the game.

And KY - I too had a little daydream yesterday of how nice a West Stand Terrace would be. I was wondering what I'd do if I won the Euro Millions draw, and that was one of the things towards the top of my list!

[Dr Bob]

Sorry JT, you appear to have been confused by my obtuse style of writing. We all agree is that it is a political issue you, me, the football supporters from Scunthorpe and Leicester City, and the staff at LCFC. What I was criticising with the last group was the idea of &quottoo&quot, as if something can be too political for, well, anything.

If there is one thing I would sort of disagree with you about, it is when you say that the issue of terracing has been hijacked by various interests - but only because, as I see it, the whole issue was about things other than fans' safety right from the outset, rather than being hijacked subsequently. Indeed, although I have never read it, I believe there is nothing in the Taylor Report demanding the dirigiste policy that Thatcher then drove through. As such, the issue was made political by Thatcher, so nobody can claim later that it is TOO political.

What worries me most - and you make this point as well - is that this policy has acquired a sort of path dependency. It was set up for all the wrong reasons, but is now so entrenched in so many people's thinking that the inappropriateness of the policy is irrelevant: it is what it is and there is no going back.

This is utter bollocks, of course, but where are the football authorities going to get some cojones from to stand up and say the policy and thus also Thatcher were wrong.

[Baboo]

But 96 people did not die at Hillsborough because of terracing,

100% correct. It wasn't even the fences IMHO. If the terraces had not been divided into pens it would not have happened. And don't start me on the policing.

[Baboo]

[

Well it won't happen if everyone has that attitude! While I tend to agree with you that campaigning for safe terracing is a bit like banging your head against a brick wall (or banging your shins against a plastic seat back), it's a campaign I fully support.

I still dream of a terrace at the West End of our ground, and only a change of attitude throughout football will make it happen.

Think you might have got me wrong here. I would wholeheartedly support any properly organised campaign for safe terracing. People should have a choice.
I have long had that dream of a terraced West Stand for home fans, with a supporters club built underneath it, local bands playing from 1 to 2:30 &amp everyone entering the ground hyped up and rocking.
But I can't see it happening. It's just a dream.

[Kernow Yellow]

What worries me most - and you make this point as well - is that this policy has acquired a sort of path dependency. It was set up for all the wrong reasons, but is now so entrenched in so many people's thinking that the inappropriateness of the policy is irrelevant: it is what it is and there is no going back.

That's very well put, and is imo one of the two biggest problems facing a campaign for the reintroduction of terracing. The other is the fact that the vast majority of people involved in the administration of football (at national, league or club level) have probably never paid to go to a football match. They've been parachuted in for their 'expertise', or cash, and therefore do not start with the interests of genuine fans in mind in anything they do. But fans should never forget that without us, football would be nothing. If properly organised we CAN make things happen.

[Snake]

But 96 people did not die at Hillsborough because of terracing,

100% correct. It wasn't even the fences IMHO. If the terraces had not been divided into pens it would not have happened. And don't start me on the policing.

‘Nor me.

I was at Anfield a few weeks ago for a game and the flame still burns (literally) under the names of the 96 who died that day.

Let’s not forget the lessons learnt from that era (even if the people responsible for the carnage have never been properly brought to justice) but clubs like Luton and Oxford United and Scunny are still bound by the rules of the Taylor Report and it's time the subject was re-visited. I ain't no Tory but I can feel an email to my local MP/the PM on this matter in the offing. Something along the lines of if your team was once great and played in the top two divisions then no problem, but if you drop down then why not allow standing until your team is not so crap?

[bob s]

Well surely the simplest argument for terracing should be along the lines of..say.... build a terrace with a capacity of say, 3500 but only allow 2000 in.......and strictly adhere to this priciple With modern technology, this should be quite simple.

[Joey's Toe]

Interestingly, one of the quangos due to be abolished in the list announced today is the Football Licensing Authority.

Not sure whether that will make it easier or not for the terracing issue to be reconsidered, but it may create an opening for the debate to be raised again.

[YeOx]

Well surely the simplest argument for terracing should be along the lines of..say.... build a terrace with a capacity of say, 3500 but only allow 2000 in.......and strictly adhere to this priciple With modern technology, this should be quite simple.

I thought Stevenage had already pioneered this with their capacity of around 7,000 - But never 'allowing' for more than 2,500?