Rage Online

&quotMark G&quot wrote:

&quotty cobb&quot wrote:GY you're almost starting to sound like me - as soon as the financial results were annouced for this year I was worried, as we have gone 'balls out' this year I would expect the losses to be bigger - not good.

We had a chairman who ran the club on a even keel, it didn't produce results so we got rid of him. I'm not saying that was a bad thing but success and budgeting rarely go together in the football world anymore.

Still it sounds like his sons are Oxford fans so at least this explains why he got involved - I hope it wasn't anything to do with making money because it just doesn't happen at our level.

One correction, Kassam left OUFC with a debt of £2million or so which WPL have inherited. How this has been dealt with since the takeover is open for discussion as it has been but that Kassam left a large chunk of the current debt isn't debatable.

&quotResurrection Ox&quot wrote:

&quotGodalmingYellow&quot wrote:

&quotResurrection Ox&quot wrote: So what do you suggest doing? As i said before those of us who actually turned up on Thursday heard Lenagan say that they decided to go 'balls out' for promotion this season. That meant a big wage bill. That where the money has gone. Plus funds in re the desperately needed boost to club infrastructure. The loss is not unexpected to me.

They are not prepared to lose this sort of amount every season. They said that clearly. Do you honestly expect a lovely little sugar daddy donating the money? If you do, you are naive.

Fact of the matter is there was a lot of financial disclosure last week which is good. It took some coaxing from us - we asked about financial disclosure at every single Oxvox meeting with the club this season and now at last the supporters last wek got some beef. We now know that thre is a risk that the debt to individuals (ie Lenagan) may increase.

So that will allow us to influence at an earlier stage than say the Herd/Cox era. What more, I ask, PRACTICALLY, can be done by the supporters at this stage of the cycle?

Nowhere near good enough Tim. And it makes no difference how many times you try to avoid answering the question.

The only facts that matter are, we have to have debts written off or debts being repaid. There are NO alternatives to those two.

I'll ignore your TiU esque jibes on naivety, and turning up to forums. But suffice to say if you wish to bring the standard of argument down, do it elsewhere.

You are a senior committee member on the OxVox committee. The one and only organisation supposedly representing supporters. It is your job to demand answers to these important questions, not glibly bat them off.

You should be finding out how the debts will be repaid. You should be finding out why the owners are budgeting for losses and big debts that the club cannnot afford. You should be finding out where the money has gone (and your stock answer about going balls out for promotion doesn't wash as there is a wage cap). This simply shows you are not asking the right questions of the club and you are guessing at the answers. and what is more worrying is that 14 months into the new ownership, you haven't already asked the questions and got the answers.

The level of information and explanation provided to the fans last Thursday was of a high standard. There were plenty of answers to questions in that presentation. There were plenty of the right questions asked as well. I'd much rather have one serious presentation at the end of the season covering mostl bases then some half-hearted version we've had to suffer in previous years.

What do you mean I/we are 'guessing at the answers'? Again, we heard plenty ofanswers last Thursday. Don't follow.

The 'wage cap' for 096/07 was higher than last year due to parachute payments. The cap for next season is £0.9 m. Last season we spent £1.3m. And no I am not 'guessing'. We were told that.

The presentation included a detailed profit and loss account and balance sheet for the year.

Oxvox has asked for a full copy of the presentation. Which the club have - of course- agreed to provide.

I would not expect any person funding a football club to donate monies and not expect repayment. Would you advise your clients to adopt such a funding strategy Terry? Naive.

&quotPeña Oxford United&quot wrote:I may be missing something but what are peope expecting a cash injection to comprise other than loans from directors? How do people think it normally happens at football clubs?

&quotPeña Oxford United&quot wrote:I may be missing something but what are people expecting a cash injection to comprise other than loans from directors? How do people think it normally happens at football clubs?

&quotGodalmingYellow&quot wrote:

&quotPeña Oxford United&quot wrote:I may be missing something but what are peope expecting a cash injection to comprise other than loans from directors? How do people think it normally happens at football clubs?

Yes you are missing the point of the discussion.

&quotIsaac&quot wrote:I think this is pretty straightforward, but then maybe I'm wrong.

We all agree this, correct?

1 - WPL are funding the football club by lending it money

This is my question.

2 - How, when the time comes, does WPL expect the club to pay this money back?

&quotPeña Oxford United&quot wrote:I may be missing something but what are people expecting a cash injection to comprise other than loans from directors? How do people think it normally happens at football clubs?

&quotneilw&quot wrote:GY, perhaps you could go have a debate with yourself over on your own forum?

&quotResurrection Ox&quot wrote:I really don't know what you are blathering on about.

We got a whole stack of good financial information out of the club last week - some of it down to good relationship between Oxvox and the club . And we're being pilloried for not asking the 'right' sort of question almost immediately following that meeting. It seems that we are misunderstanding each other Mr GY. No more from me on this subject on this forum.

&quotGodalmingYellow&quot wrote:

&quotResurrection Ox&quot wrote:I really don't know what you are blathering on about.

We got a whole stack of good financial information out of the club last week - some of it down to good relationship between Oxvox and the club . And we're being pilloried for not asking the 'right' sort of question almost immediately following that meeting. It seems that we are misunderstanding each other Mr GY. No more from me on this subject on this forum.

I've no idea why a misunderstanding should exist. You keep blathering on about wonderful presentations and detailed information and how the previous regime were terrible. Yes, yes, yes, these are all valid points but absolutely nothing to do with the question I raised. The answer to which you keep ignoring, which is about the debt mountain being budgeted for.

Let me put the points across once more, hopefully not across several messages so they don't become confused. I'm not intending this to sound patronising, but it is fairly simple stuff.

You will appreciate that there are only 2 wyas of removing Directors loans. a) repayment and b) write off.

Let's assume that write off is not an option (your poo pooing of this is not entirely justified, but I'll not deal with this point to avoid confusion).

That means the loans have to be repaid at some future point.

What are the methods of repaying the loans?

Either a new buyer pays them off (as WPL did with Kassam's loan) and introduces a loan of their own.

Or, the club makes sufficient cash for the loan to be repaid.

Unless the club reach the dizzy heights of the Premiership, which I'm sure we all understand ain't going to happen this side of a blue moon, the club will never have the cash to repay £4m of debts (I'm assuming you understand where the £4m comes from).

Therefore, the club has to rely on a new owner paying the loans off when WPL decide they've had enough.

My point is that a new owner is not going to pay £4m for a club with no assets.

That means that when WPL decide to split from the club (OK it isn't going to happen this year or next, but 5 years or more down the line who knows?) the club would be very insolvent, with no hope of recovery and no way of avoiding bankruptcy.

Hopefully you now understand the problem.

How will those £4m debts be repaid? Why are WPL being congratulated for sound financial management when they are leading the club up the road to financial hell? The club must be made to operate within its own means, and it should be able to do so. £4m debt is way too high for a club in non-league or lower football league with our level of support.

Buying Stadco won't help until it can be made profitable, otherwise it is simply shifting debt from one company to another. Stadco is in a financial mess and whilst £13m might just about be justified as a purchase price at the upper upper limit of its valuation on a loan free basis, the interest and repayments at that level would make Stadco even more loss making and cash hungry. So at that purchase price it would take a long long time for the purchase to benefit the club to an extent which would facilitate repayment of the club's £4m loans. All much too long. Probably 10 years or more as an educated guess, and its a bit of a gamble to say the least.

The club must run at break even to survive medium to long term.