Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:27 pm
All very interesting but the biggest intrigue for me is ... what's your issue with Mick Brown?
Which one? The crap manager or the founder of the London Road Travel Club with his silly moustache?"Hog" wrote:All very interesting but the biggest intrigue for me is ... what's your issue with Mick Brown?
I doubt very much if Scottish football will continue in tbheir absence."Oxford Bhoy" wrote: Rangers ARE going bust. Scottish football WILL continue in their absence, for better or worse. I look forward to it.
This is dodgy ground and is something that HMRC have been very keen to deal with - especially with regards football clubs. Let's say that Rangers die and a new club - "The Gers 2012", for example - if they play in blue, at Ibrox then HMRC may well think "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck" and attempt to recover the money owed from the "new" company. My understanding is that various legal loopholes have been closed recently to stop people doing this in order to avoid their liabilities."Paul Cooper" wrote:I doubt very much if Scottish football will continue in tbheir absence."Oxford Bhoy" wrote: Rangers ARE going bust. Scottish football WILL continue in their absence, for better or worse. I look forward to it.
But it will - what's the alternative? Everybody stops playing football or going to games just because the mighty Rangers are no more?
I would suspect that Rangers will be liquidated only for a new one to begin (ala Aldershot)
Of course this will happen, Ibrox has no value other than as a football ground so somebody will form a new club playing from there. It will be a brand new club, however, without the history and honours from 1873-2012.
A Rangers supporter I spoke to months ago sugeggested that discussions were already taking place as to whether they would be able to go straight back into the SPL.
I have no doubt that this will have been the case but there is a lot of opposition to this from many quarters in Scotland, including the boards and directors of quite a few SPL clubs. So by no means a foregone conclusion. Further, the waters have become considerably more muddy recently with Rangers being investigated from many quarters now. If, for example it is found that previous honours were "tainted" because of financial chicanery or even illegality, then there is no way the SPL could justify letting them off in this way, no matter how much they might want to.
If not then they presumably would start in the bottom Scottish League and within 3-4 years would be in the Top 2 in Scotland again.
I think this is the most likely outcome although the club will have to survive on very little income for the first few years, whilst in all likelihood paying Whyte/White or Ticketus rent for Ibrox. In the meantime, many of their "loyal" supporters are likely to do walking away - just a few weeks ago (before administration and while they still had a shot at winning the SPL), only 17,000 turned up to watch them play at home in the cup against Dundee United. I'm sure they will climb the leagues again but not as quickly as you may think - Rangers, or whatever the new club decides to call itself will take at least a decade, in my opinion, to get back to competing for the major honours in Scotland. By then, the Scottish game may well look very different.
Whether this is right is an argument, but I would be very surprised if Rangers don't reform and get back to where they are now but without the debts.
I don't think so."Oxford Bhoy" wrote:This is dodgy ground and is something that HMRC have been very keen to deal with - especially with regards football clubs. Let's say that Rangers die and a new club - "The Gers 2012", for example - if they play in blue, at Ibrox then HMRC may well think "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck" and attempt to recover the money owed from the "new" company. My understanding is that various legal loopholes have been closed recently to stop people doing this in order to avoid their liabilities.
As I said, it is not possible under any legislation to compel one company to take responsibility for the actions of another, where there is no linked controlling interest. Phoenix or not."Oxford Bhoy" wrote:My understanding is that HMRC has been instrumental in pushing through new legislation dealing with "phoenix" companies of this sort and that this legislation becomes law in early April. Unfortunately, I don't know the details.
Another point, though, is that at this moment in time, the only people being mentioned in connection with taking Rangers (oldco or newco, whichever) forward after administration/liquidation are former directors or the current owner. Two of these (White/Whyte and Dave King) are more than likely to fail any fit and proper person test and others are tainted by their involvement with Murray and Rangers in the past.
I honestly don't know how I think it will all pan out but I'm confident that the current incarnation of Rangers will cease to exist before the football season ends and that the SPL will be unable to allow them back in, no matter how much they'd like to.
Mick Brown is not an uncommon name - http://search.catflaporama.com/post/browse/531614730"Hog" wrote:All very interesting but the biggest intrigue for me is ... what's your issue with Mick Brown?
They 'don't go after' a phoenix company. They can't. What HMRC , (or any other creditor come to that), via the liquidator can do is possibly lift the corporate veil and go after the perpetrators of the insolvency. Personally."GodalmingYellow" wrote:As I said, it is not possible under any legislation to compel one company to take responsibility for the actions of another, where there is no linked controlling interest. Phoenix or not."Oxford Bhoy" wrote:My understanding is that HMRC has been instrumental in pushing through new legislation dealing with "phoenix" companies of this sort and that this legislation becomes law in early April. Unfortunately, I don't know the details.
Another point, though, is that at this moment in time, the only people being mentioned in connection with taking Rangers (oldco or newco, whichever) forward after administration/liquidation are former directors or the current owner. Two of these (White/Whyte and Dave King) are more than likely to fail any fit and proper person test and others are tainted by their involvement with Murray and Rangers in the past.
I honestly don't know how I think it will all pan out but I'm confident that the current incarnation of Rangers will cease to exist before the football season ends and that the SPL will be unable to allow them back in, no matter how much they'd like to.
Rangers FC represents the fans that suport the club. If there is the same manager, the same employees, the same fans, the same league and the same ground, in practice, little has changed, but the legal position can have changed easily sufficiently to prevent an HMRC attack.
What you are referring to in HMRC going after a phoenix company, is where there is the same controlling interest in both the folded and risen companies. As I said that is easily avoided in football by the phoenix club having different parties in control.
How are we supposed to know? You're the one saying 'Mick Brown Out' several times a day."Oxford Bhoy" wrote:Which one? The crap manager or the founder of the London Road Travel Club with his silly moustache?"Hog" wrote:All very interesting but the biggest intrigue for me is ... what's your issue with Mick Brown?
Err that is completely wrong. HMRC do go after Phoenix companies."pottersrightboot" wrote:They 'don't go after' a phoenix company. They can't. What HMRC , (or any other creditor come to that), via the liquidator can do is possibly lift the corporate veil and go after the perpetrators of the insolvency. Personally."GodalmingYellow" wrote:As I said, it is not possible under any legislation to compel one company to take responsibility for the actions of another, where there is no linked controlling interest. Phoenix or not."Oxford Bhoy" wrote:My understanding is that HMRC has been instrumental in pushing through new legislation dealing with "phoenix" companies of this sort and that this legislation becomes law in early April. Unfortunately, I don't know the details.
Another point, though, is that at this moment in time, the only people being mentioned in connection with taking Rangers (oldco or newco, whichever) forward after administration/liquidation are former directors or the current owner. Two of these (White/Whyte and Dave King) are more than likely to fail any fit and proper person test and others are tainted by their involvement with Murray and Rangers in the past.
I honestly don't know how I think it will all pan out but I'm confident that the current incarnation of Rangers will cease to exist before the football season ends and that the SPL will be unable to allow them back in, no matter how much they'd like to.
Rangers FC represents the fans that suport the club. If there is the same manager, the same employees, the same fans, the same league and the same ground, in practice, little has changed, but the legal position can have changed easily sufficiently to prevent an HMRC attack.
What you are referring to in HMRC going after a phoenix company, is where there is the same controlling interest in both the folded and risen companies. As I said that is easily avoided in football by the phoenix club having different parties in control.
Re any co which rises out of the ashes where there is common control between old and new and where HMRC is dicked?
They can ask that new co pays a healthy returnable VAT deposit upfront as a condition of VAT registration. I've seen six months worth of VAT being imposed in such circumstances. Which is only returned if newco are complaint with tax affairs going forward.
I repeat Rangers will survive, sorry Mr Bhoy.
Fair point mate. It wasn't my intention to start banging on about Rangers on this forum but I saw the thread and couldn't resist. I've been keeping abreast of this issue via a Celtic forum I'm a member of. For the record, I've been a Celtic supporter since about the age of four but went to my first ever game at the Manor in 1970 and was a regular home & away from about 1975 to 1998 when I left the UK completely."Kernow Yellow" wrote:How are we supposed to know? You're the one saying 'Mick Brown Out' several times a day."Oxford Bhoy" wrote:Which one? The crap manager or the founder of the London Road Travel Club with his silly moustache?"Hog" wrote:All very interesting but the biggest intrigue for me is ... what's your issue with Mick Brown?
This Rangers talk is all very interesting, but one thing intrigues me - why does someone who claims to be a U's fan for over 40 years register on an Oxford United forum solely to comment on the affairs of a team he/she doesn't even support at all?
You are Ed Horton and I claim my £5."Oxford Bhoy" wrote:I'm not in any position to comment on the side as I very rarely get to see them here in Spain
Try again."A-Ro" wrote:You are Ed Horton and I claim my £5."Oxford Bhoy" wrote:I'm not in any position to comment on the side as I very rarely get to see them here in Spain