Fan's Forum

[Baboo]

IL pointed out that many businesses still boycot the stadium and that the losses at the stadium were increasing. He pointed out that he had a lot of experience at making such businesses work (Sprots Cafe).

Has market research been done on this?
Is the boycott a boycott of Kassam &amp if so a) because he is Kassam or b) to force him to sell an asset that is losing money
Would these businesses use the facilities at the stadium if IL had control and thus turn it into a profitable venture?

[GodalmingYellow]

[quote=&quotResurrection OxWho said anything about 'mateyness'? I merely turned up to hear what they had to say last Thursday.

I repeat. What investor would just'donate' money' to the club not expecting it to be repaid?

If the level of financial information being provided to supporters continues to be of the standard as per presentation then we will be able to influence to prevent the scenario you refer to taking place.[/quote]

I can't see where you are coming from on this Tim. I would have thought you would have been able to understand the financial mess brewing.

You will understand that there are only two options, write off loans or repay them.

If as you say the loans will not be written off, then that means the Directors will expect them to be repaid.

Yet, you are full of the wonders of the new owners whilst they are saying they will be prepared to build up £4m of club debts with no assets.

I'm sorry you won't like this but that is bad financial management.

Anyone can prepare a tarted up presentation on Powerpoint, but at the end of the day the club's owners are saying they wish to build up a very large debt, which the club will never be able to repay, which they will not write off and which no future owner will pay without assets to cover the debts.

I repeat, what will you say to supporters and OxVox members if it goes tits up, because as far as I can see, Lenagan is taking a significant gamble on the future of the club.

As Is aid above, its all very well welcoming positive steps in the direction of the club, but that is useless unless you are prepared to openly ask the relevant difficult questions and get the appropriate answers.

[Mally]

I'm very surprised about the losses that have been budgeted and are expected this year. With the highest turnover since we moved to the KasStad, the lowest wages bill and rent effectively frozen even with additional investment in the youth team there's an awful lot of money gone somewhere.

The other side of &quotinvestment&quot from owners is the debt mountain it creates and for those with short memories it was this sort of debt that brought the club to it's knees almost 10 years ago. Another factor with investment is that it almost certainly comes with interest payments at a favourable rate to the lender.

[GodalmingYellow]

I'm very surprised about the losses that have been budgeted and are expected this year. With the highest turnover since we moved to the KasStad, the lowest wages bill and rent effectively frozen even with additional investment in the youth team there's an awful lot of money gone somewhere.

The other side of &quotinvestment&quot from owners is the debt mountain it creates and for those with short memories it was this sort of debt that brought the club to it's knees almost 10 years ago. Another factor with investment is that it almost certainly comes with interest payments at a favourable rate to the lender.

I agree completely Mally.

Investment and borrowing of this nature over a couple of years for longer term benefit is one thing, borrowing just to subsidise running costs over a number of years is a completely different issue.

We cannot allow our club to go through the debt cycle again.

[Isaac]

I'm catching up with all this and I wasn't there so might have missed out on some important points, but I agree entirely with GY and Mally. I'm amazed no-one asked how the debt was being financed and/or whether it was the clubs debt to WPL or whether WPL had written it off.

I really don't want to discover that in 2 years time WPL pull out having failed to secure funding to buy the stadium (and this plan sounds a lot like Cox/Herd's failed plans). Then the club is still in the conference, but with a completely unsustainable £4millions worth of debt (I'm estimating but if we're 2.75 now, ||.75 for this season then .25 for the next 2 then £4m sounds feasible).

[Resurrection Ox]

I'm very surprised about the losses that have been budgeted and are expected this year. With the highest turnover since we moved to the KasStad, the lowest wages bill and rent effectively frozen even with additional investment in the youth team there's an awful lot of money gone somewhere.

The other side of &quotinvestment&quot from owners is the debt mountain it creates and for those with short memories it was this sort of debt that brought the club to it's knees almost 10 years ago. Another factor with investment is that it almost certainly comes with interest payments at a favourable rate to the lender.

I agree completely Mally.

Investment and borrowing of this nature over a couple of years for longer term benefit is one thing, borrowing just to subsidise running costs over a number of years is a completely different issue.

We cannot allow our club to go through the debt cycle again.

So what do you suggest doing? As i said before those of us who actually turned up on Thursday heard Lenagan say that they decided to go 'balls out' for promotion this season. That meant a big wage bill. That where the money has gone. Plus funds in re the desperately needed boost to club infrastructure. The loss is not unexpected to me.

They are not prepared to lose this sort of amount every season. They said that clearly. Do you honestly expect a lovely little sugar daddy donating the money? If you do, you are naive.

Fact of the matter is there was a lot of financial disclosure last week which is good. It took some coaxing from us - we asked about financial disclosure at every single Oxvox meeting with the club this season and now at last the supporters last wek got some beef. We now know that thre is a risk that the debt to individuals (ie Lenagan) may increase.

So that will allow us to influence at an earlier stage than say the Herd/Cox era. What more, I ask, PRACTICALLY, can be done by the supporters at this stage of the cycle?

[Kernow Yellow]

I'm catching up with all this and I wasn't there so might have missed out on some important points, but I agree entirely with GY and Mally. I'm amazed no-one asked how the debt was being financed and/or whether it was the clubs debt to WPL or whether WPL had written it off.

I really don't want to discover that in 2 years time WPL pull out having failed to secure funding to buy the stadium (and this plan sounds a lot like Cox/Herd's failed plans). Then the club is still in the conference, but with a completely unsustainable £4millions worth of debt (I'm estimating but if we're 2.75 now, ||.75 for this season then .25 for the next 2 then £4m sounds feasible).

Agree completely with this, Isaac.

I do, of course, welcome the new-found transparency apparently revealed at the meeting and , like others, am very glad the club is in the hands of people who seem to care about it and know a bit about business.

But WPL will only make money by buying the stadium, and it does seem that their current plans to achieve this are not exactly certain to be achieved. If they don't achieve this within a reasonable timeframe, then we're faced with the prospect of being back in the same old frightening position of being saddled with debt with very little by way of assets.

I'm sure this is the very last thing that WPL want, but I really hope they know what they're doing. In my OUFC-supporting life, almost every incoming chairman has been hailed as some kind of Messiah, and we've ended up cursing every single one of them...

[Snake]

Still no sign of that PowerPoint presentation, redacted to remove the sensitive commercial data or not.

[ty cobb]

GY you're almost starting to sound like me - as soon as the financial results were annouced for this year I was worried, as we have gone 'balls out' this year I would expect the losses to be bigger - not good.

We had a chairman who ran the club on a even keel, it didn't produce results so we got rid of him. I'm not saying that was a bad thing but success and budgeting rarely go together in the football world anymore.

Still it sounds like his sons are Oxford fans so at least this explains why he got involved - I hope it wasn't anything to do with making money because it just doesn't happen at our level.

[GodalmingYellow]

So what do you suggest doing? As i said before those of us who actually turned up on Thursday heard Lenagan say that they decided to go 'balls out' for promotion this season. That meant a big wage bill. That where the money has gone. Plus funds in re the desperately needed boost to club infrastructure. The loss is not unexpected to me.

They are not prepared to lose this sort of amount every season. They said that clearly. Do you honestly expect a lovely little sugar daddy donating the money? If you do, you are naive.

Fact of the matter is there was a lot of financial disclosure last week which is good. It took some coaxing from us - we asked about financial disclosure at every single Oxvox meeting with the club this season and now at last the supporters last wek got some beef. We now know that thre is a risk that the debt to individuals (ie Lenagan) may increase.

So that will allow us to influence at an earlier stage than say the Herd/Cox era. What more, I ask, PRACTICALLY, can be done by the supporters at this stage of the cycle?

Nowhere near good enough Tim. And it makes no difference how many times you try to avoid answering the question.

The only facts that matter are, we have to have debts written off or debts being repaid. There are NO alternatives to those two.

I'll ignore your TiU esque jibes on naivety, and turning up to forums. But suffice to say if you wish to bring the standard of argument down, do it elsewhere.

You are a senior committee member on the OxVox committee. The one and only organisation supposedly representing supporters. It is your job to demand answers to these important questions, not glibly bat them off.

You should be finding out how the debts will be repaid. You should be finding out why the owners are budgeting for losses and big debts that the club cannnot afford. You should be finding out where the money has gone (and your stock answer about going balls out for promotion doesn't wash as there is a wage cap). This simply shows you are not asking the right questions of the club and you are guessing at the answers. and what is more worrying is that 14 months into the new ownership, you haven't already asked the questions and got the answers.

[Mark G]

GY you're almost starting to sound like me - as soon as the financial results were annouced for this year I was worried, as we have gone 'balls out' this year I would expect the losses to be bigger - not good.

We had a chairman who ran the club on a even keel, it didn't produce results so we got rid of him. I'm not saying that was a bad thing but success and budgeting rarely go together in the football world anymore.

Still it sounds like his sons are Oxford fans so at least this explains why he got involved - I hope it wasn't anything to do with making money because it just doesn't happen at our level.

One correction, Kassam left OUFC with a debt of £2million or so which WPL have inherited. How this has been dealt with since the takeover is open for discussion as it has been but that Kassam left a large chunk of the current debt isn't debatable.

[GodalmingYellow]

GY you're almost starting to sound like me - as soon as the financial results were annouced for this year I was worried, as we have gone 'balls out' this year I would expect the losses to be bigger - not good.

We had a chairman who ran the club on a even keel, it didn't produce results so we got rid of him. I'm not saying that was a bad thing but success and budgeting rarely go together in the football world anymore.

Still it sounds like his sons are Oxford fans so at least this explains why he got involved - I hope it wasn't anything to do with making money because it just doesn't happen at our level.

Kassam wasn't ousted because of running the club on an even keel (which he didn't achieve). It was because his idea of running the club on an even keel was to cut all costs down to the bare minimum and beyond. This resulted in the club having a terrible image in football and the community, an apparent lack of will to make the club succeed, poor players and performances, falling crowds and the club therefore making big losses, ultimately resulting in plummeting through the leagues and loss of league status. But lets not dilute this important debate by returning to the Kassam issue.

[Resurrection Ox]

So what do you suggest doing? As i said before those of us who actually turned up on Thursday heard Lenagan say that they decided to go 'balls out' for promotion this season. That meant a big wage bill. That where the money has gone. Plus funds in re the desperately needed boost to club infrastructure. The loss is not unexpected to me.

They are not prepared to lose this sort of amount every season. They said that clearly. Do you honestly expect a lovely little sugar daddy donating the money? If you do, you are naive.

Fact of the matter is there was a lot of financial disclosure last week which is good. It took some coaxing from us - we asked about financial disclosure at every single Oxvox meeting with the club this season and now at last the supporters last wek got some beef. We now know that thre is a risk that the debt to individuals (ie Lenagan) may increase.

So that will allow us to influence at an earlier stage than say the Herd/Cox era. What more, I ask, PRACTICALLY, can be done by the supporters at this stage of the cycle?

Nowhere near good enough Tim. And it makes no difference how many times you try to avoid answering the question.

The only facts that matter are, we have to have debts written off or debts being repaid. There are NO alternatives to those two.

I'll ignore your TiU esque jibes on naivety, and turning up to forums. But suffice to say if you wish to bring the standard of argument down, do it elsewhere.

You are a senior committee member on the OxVox committee. The one and only organisation supposedly representing supporters. It is your job to demand answers to these important questions, not glibly bat them off.

You should be finding out how the debts will be repaid. You should be finding out why the owners are budgeting for losses and big debts that the club cannnot afford. You should be finding out where the money has gone (and your stock answer about going balls out for promotion doesn't wash as there is a wage cap). This simply shows you are not asking the right questions of the club and you are guessing at the answers. and what is more worrying is that 14 months into the new ownership, you haven't already asked the questions and got the answers.

The level of information and explanation provided to the fans last Thursday was of a high standard. There were plenty of answers to questions in that presentation. There were plenty of the right questions asked as well. I'd much rather have one serious presentation at the end of the season covering mostl bases then some half-hearted version we've had to suffer in previous years.

What do you mean I/we are 'guessing at the answers'? Again, we heard plenty ofanswers last Thursday. Don't follow.

The 'wage cap' for 096/07 was higher than last year due to parachute payments. The cap for next season is £0.9 m. Last season we spent £1.3m. And no I am not 'guessing'. We were told that.

The presentation included a detailed profit and loss account and balance sheet for the year.

Oxvox has asked for a full copy of the presentation. Which the club have - of course- agreed to provide.

I would not expect any person funding a football club to donate monies and not expect repayment. Would you advise your clients to adopt such a funding strategy Terry? Naive.

[Isaac]

I would not expect any person funding a football club to donate monies and not expect repayment. Would you advise your clients to adopt such a funding strategy Terry? Naive.

I don't think anyone with any knowledge of football history (particularly at Oxford) would expect any person running a football club to donate monies and not expect repayment - this is exactly the point of concern!

If they are expecting repayment then how are they expecting the club to do it? This is the worry - at the moment the club has no assets and £2.75million of debt (rising to £4m in 2 years), I appreciate WPL are funding the debt currently, but what happens if they up and leave?

The plan to buy the stadium involving Oxford University sponsorship seems very optimistic to me - it didn't work for Herd and Cox after all so it won't be straightforward. I am pleased that WPL at least have a plan and are looking forward optimistically but history shows that with our stadium things rarely go to plan, have they got a contingency plan if we have to continue to rent the ground that doesn't involve losing £.25m each season until they admit defeat and give up?

[Mally]

The 'wage cap' for 096/07 was higher than last year due to parachute payments. The cap for next season is £0.9 m. Last season we spent £1.3m. And no I am not 'guessing'. We were told that.

Well, we were actually told that they spent £1.2m on players this year. We also were told that they spent £425k on the stadium. These are by far the two biggest areas of expense. If you add in the £120k spent on youth development it comes to £1.745m. They spent a total of £3.3m so the question remains - Where did the other £1.555m go?

It may all be totally justified expense but it would be nice to know how much was being spent on things like non-playing staff, interest payments and directors' expenses.

As for the build up of debt I would be far less concerned if there was a credible plan in place to acquire the stadium which is the only way I can see the club turning a future profit in order to repay that debt. Added to this is the real danger that Kassam will get fed up of waiting and go looking for a rugby club to take it off his hands. As I've said before with a sitting tenant paying £425k per year it is an attractive proposition to somebody like London Irish or Wasps.