Stadium again

[Resurrection Ox]

The fact that it was a rusting dump would have affected its'market value'.

Well, not necessarily. If somebody else had wished to purchase the site for another purpose than a sports stadium, for instance, then it wouldn't make much difference whether what was there already were rusting or not.[/quote

The 'purchaser' would have had to have paid to clear that dump then. Its all history anyway - apart from the fact that the financial advantage accruing to Kassam as a consequence of picking up the asset part-completed should be factored into any subsequent sale discussions with WPL.

[GodalmingYellow]

By now OxVox members should have received the latest news letter with details of the exchange of letters with Firoz Kassam and the limited comments from the club on the subject so I'm surprised that there hasn't been any comment about it on here.

It looks like nothing has moved since WPL took over last year. According to Kassam he still wants what he wanted when negotiations started a year ago and has offered to help finance the purchase if (as is more than likely) WPL can't come up with the security to finance the purchase themselves. WPL keep hinting at being about to make an offer but have said very little else except:

&quotObviously everyone knows our ambition and love for the club. If
there were a way of doing the deal for the stadium at the present time
we would have done it by now. However we are not prepared to do the
stadium deal at a price which will endanger the future of the club.
The negotiations will continue with Firoz Kassam to achieve a
satisfactory deal and when there is any news we will communicate it to
the supporters.&quot

OxVox's comment that &quotwe do not think that the owners of the football club should allow themselves to pay a price that is substantially more than the facility is worth doing so could put the club on a difficult financial footing.&quot totally misses the point about the buildng and ownership of the stadium in the first place. It was because the stadium cost more to build than it is worth that it took so long to complete. Kassam is not the sort of person to compromise when it comes to recouping the money he has invested - he is almost certainly going to want a minimum of what he put in which is gong to be in the region of £10 million.

It looks like there is no way out of the current impasse with WPL unwilling and probably unable to pay the asking price and Kassam unwilling to contemplate selling at a loss. The longer this situation goes on the more dangerous it becomes for the club and there could come a time when Kassam starts looking for other offers from a rugby club or starts to think the unthinkable and looks at redeveloping the land.

Of course there could be something in the legal agreement between Kassam and the council that impacts this but unfortunately the council have refused to disclose this information in spite of requests under the freedom of information act. Recently the Information Commissioner has ruled that the council were acting unlawfully in refusing to release this information but they still haven't released it. They have just 4 days in which to respond to the latest request but I don't think I'll be holding my breath. Makes you wonder what the council have to hide doesn't it?

Kassam saying he has offered to part fund the sale is meaningless. This probably just means he has been asked if he would accept stage payments, which is a very common negotiating tool used by both sides in such deals, or the Stadco may be sufficently profitable for him to want to retain a shareholding.

You shouldn't read more into that than is stated, even more so with Kassam's history of spin.

Boris's point that we don't know the build cost is not true either. Take a look at the various sets of accounts.

What is more worrying, which Mark highlights, is the length of time being taken to make a substantive offer. This doesn't indicate lack of funding, as funding is always available in one form or another, but what it does indicate to me is that Merry, and more importantly Leneghan, value the future financial stability of the club less than the risk of possibly making an offer which may or may not be slightly more than they need to. They know the costs of running the place by now. They know the StadCo finances by now. They know the potential of the Conference Centre by now.

Its a disappointing position to be in at this stage and to me it is indicative of less committment than is on public show.

[Snake]

“The 'purchaser' would have had to have paid to clear that dump then

[GodalmingYellow]

[quote=&quotSnake&quot]“The 'purchaser' would have had to have paid to clear that dump then

[GodalmingYellow]

These issues have been aired quite fully on TIU. Consensus seems to be that short term there is no crisis in this matter not being resolved. Medium term of course it needs to be settled.

Well that's alright then. As long as they say so, then I'm satisfied and we should all be silent.

I don't think so.

We've accepted the status quo way too often. A football club has less lives than a cat.

[Mally]

Well that kicked off a debate if nothing else. No we don't know allthe facts which is why I phrased my comments as being what I think and not what I know.

However we do know how much it cost Kassam to complete the building of the stadium this was approximately £10 million. He probably sees the money he had to pay the secured creditors at the Manor as an additional stadium cost. In other words Res Ox in Kassam's mind he paid for the existing work so it wasn't just the cost of building from then on.

This probably takes his asking price to £12 million, a figure that I have heard from a number of very reliable and credible sources (each with 2 degrees of seperation from each side of the deal). Whether this is a justifiable figure or not is irrelevant. If its the figure Kassam wants and he refuses to budge then its the figure (or something very close) that is required.

If WPL can't or won't come up with this figure then we have a big problem for the future of the club. The club only continues to be able to play in the stadium because Kassam allows it and hasn't got a better plan for it or the land it sits on - remember he owns the freehold. It may be that the land deal he signed with the council ties his hands and means that the football club must be allowed to play there but of course we don't know whether this is the case because the council refuse to tell us despite the government tellng them that they must.

BTW The land value and the council's role in it has been dealt with by the district auditor as Snake has already referred to so I don't think thats got anything to do with the council's reluctance to release the details of the contract.

[Resurrection Ox]

These issues have been aired quite fully on TIU. Consensus seems to be that short term there is no crisis in this matter not being resolved. Medium term of course it needs to be settled.

Well that's alright then. As long as they say so, then I'm satisfied and we should all be silent.

I don't think so.

We've accepted the status quo way too often. A football club has less lives than a cat.

Yes - but exactly what is the point in getting mega exercised JUST at the moment??

The main issue short term must be promotion.

[Resurrection Ox]

[quote=&quotSnake&quot]“The 'purchaser' would have had to have paid to clear that dump then

[Mally]

Yes - but exactly what is the point in getting mega exercised JUST at the moment??

The main issue short term must be promotion.

Well to be fair you started it Res Ox by devoting a large part of the Ox Vox newsletter to the subject. Or do I detect a split on the committee?

To answer your question - it's important because its the biggest single thing (possibly the only thing) that threatens the survival of the club. Just because promotion is important doesn't mean that other important things should be ignored. It's also important now because WPL have dropped hints over the last few months that something was going to happen soon but their latest statement doesn't sound anything like as positive:

&quotIf there were a way of doing the deal for the stadium at the present time
we would have done it by now. However we are not prepared to do the
stadium deal at a price which will endanger the future of the club.&quot

[Resurrection Ox]

Yes - but exactly what is the point in getting mega exercised JUST at the moment??

The main issue short term must be promotion.

Well to be fair you started it Res Ox by devoting a large part of the Ox Vox newsletter to the subject. Or do I detect a split on the committee?

To answer your question - it's important because its the biggest single thing (possibly the only thing) that threatens the survival of the club. Just because promotion is important doesn't mean that other important things should be ignored. It's also important now because WPL have dropped hints over the last few months that something was going to happen soon but their latest statement doesn't sound anything like as positive:

&quotIf there were a way of doing the deal for the stadium at the present time
we would have done it by now. However we are not prepared to do the
stadium deal at a price which will endanger the future of the club.&quot[/quote

Its an important issue. It had to be put in the newsletter. Otherwise Oxvox are not doing their jobs.

I can't disagree with any of your points.

But isn't it better to think through an approach which all the intelligent supporters can buy into over the coming weeks then just blaze away aimlessly? Does it matter for the remainder of 2006/2007 season whether the club own the ground? Or not? Not in my personal view..

[GodalmingYellow]

These issues have been aired quite fully on TIU. Consensus seems to be that short term there is no crisis in this matter not being resolved. Medium term of course it needs to be settled.

Well that's alright then. As long as they say so, then I'm satisfied and we should all be silent.

I don't think so.

We've accepted the status quo way too often. A football club has less lives than a cat.

Yes - but exactly what is the point in getting mega exercised JUST at the moment??

The main issue short term must be promotion.

Well this is an issue which has been building a (small) head of steam for a little while. It isn't something that has just come out of the blue and eveyrone is jumping on a bandwagon. Mark raised the debate on here, and it has been discussed on here before, usually concluding give it a bit more time. From my point of view it is an issue which has been growing, and the degree of urgency grows a little with each week that passes without resolution.

The question probably in the minds of many, is when will enough prevaricating be enough. I've always maintained the view hat it needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later.

The club cannot support itself in the medium or long term without the stadium.

[DLT]

Random comments on the debate so far.

Firstly my disappointment with OXVOX who only made limited comments on Kassam's letter at their AGM. And this comment focused solely on the first paragraph. It was Mally and I asking to see the letter during the break at the end of 'official' business and my insistance on discussing it in the second half that, I believe, brought it properly into the public domain.

I am of the opinion (others at the meeting may feel differently) that OXVOX had not reviewed the letter properly or understood what it brought into the public domain.

On the issue of other options for Kassam. Well I can name three sports clubs who could easily afford 12 million for a stadium that ideally supports there needs, more so than their current rented accomodation, and has potential to grow a capacity of 20K plus.

All three clubs have a track record of relocating their franchise. My only surprise is that none of these sports clubs have taken the opportunity sofar.

Our lease on the ground is only secure whilst we pay the rent on time. If the owners can show that the club fails to pay monies owed on time then it would be a simple task to cancel the lease.

While it would be nice for Kassam to decide he has made so much money from other parts of the development that he can sell the stadium for less than it cost, that will never happen. Why never? Because of the last fans forum.

[Mally]

One point that needs making about Kassam's letter to OxVox is his claim that deal and a price for the stadium was AGREED when he sold the club. Not that he told WPL what the asking price was but that it had been agreed which tends to suggest that if Kassam is telling the truth then WPL either made an agreement they never meant to keep or they have subsequently changed their mind. Presumably the option to purchase they have mentioned would have been at the agreed price so it is effectively worthless.

I'm surprised that OxVox didn't even mention this in their commentary of the letter but did say that a compromise on price was to be expected on any commercial deal. Even after the deal has been agreed?

[Snake]

[quote=&quotResurrection Ox&quot][quote=&quotSnake&quot]“The 'purchaser' would have had to have paid to clear that dump then

[ty cobb]

This all seems a little worrying to me. FK said at the last forum that he didn't want to sell the club without the ground as he thought it was important they were kept together and if it took a little while for funding to be found then so be it.

He is also now saying that a price had been agreed and that price remains the same.

So who is mucking who about here? FK has now put his position into the public domain, both at a fans forum and now with this letter. WPL don't appear to want to comment on the issue beyond it's a medium term goal and they won't hold a fans forum. If they feel the price is too high then they should say so and should not have agreed to it in the first place. If FK is lying then they should also say so. It would appear to me they have decided that they don't want to buy the stadium at the moment.

I feel it is vital for a club to own their own stadium and the money generated from the stadium to go towards the club otherwise we can only achieve so much in the long term. There are too many examples of clubs being separated from their ground ending in disaster to ignore this issue.

I also feel that the leisure complex should be taken into account in any 'price' set by FK as this was only able to be built as a result of the stadium going through and FK has said that this was built to help finance OUFC. If the asking price of the stadium is simply what FK has paid for it then I think it is overpriced as he is getting a profitable leisure complex in a very affluent city for free on the back of saving the club.

I would have no problem with waiting for the price to come down, although I would have thought with the level we are at it can only go up, but surely something must be said by Merry about this issue.

By writing to FK it would suggest to me at least that OxVox don't really know what is going on with the stadium, if they did they would be

a) happy that WPL are pursing the right strategy and not take this action
b) feel that FK is being unreasonable and hopefully starting a campaign to out pressure on him to sell - lets not forgot many Oxford fans use the Ozone complex.

I am also not surprised that FK gave such a curt reply after the very public OxVox campaign to get rid of him last year.

The only positive that I can see from all of this is that WPL are involved in the club for the good of OUFC. Dodgy owners usually only come into football and look to make money off the back of the ground as at this level there is not much money to be made elsewhere.

However, I still feel they need to make their position clear, they do not hold a forum, do not appear to keep OxVox up to date with the details involved and do not make any useful comments on the subject. FK has and I feel it is now time they also did.