Minutes of meeting between OxVox and OUFC

[GodalmingYellow]

Perhaps the point about the North Stand doors is that a fans led campaign (some of whom I think had Oxvox connections) was instrumental in getting the club to allow the home fans to be able sit nearer to the half-way line, which required work doing. So why not ask Oxvox if there are funds? Isn't one of the Objectives of a Supporters' Trust to enable the supporters to contribute to the success of the Club?

Very carefully worded there Mark.

The problem term is what you mean by contribute. The word contribute has undertones of contributing cash, which is no doubt why you used it. The term involvement might be more suitable.

OxVox is a means of communication and supporter involvement in the running of the club, with a view to future partial ownership.

OxVox is definitely not a cashpoint for Kelvin Thomas, and it is not a subsidy for club running costs.

If the club wish to move doors on a stadium owned by a third party, to enable the club's supporters a better experience, thus giving the opportunity to the club of improved ticket sales, it is a budgetary decision for the club.

To say it was cheeky in the extreme of Kelvin to expect OxVox to provide the cash, even if the idea was first mooted by OxVox, understates the nerve of him asking.

I actually think these minutes cast Kelvin in a slightly dimmer light than was previously the case, and his halo now needs a bloody good polish.

[OUFC4eva]

This is subject is also being discussed on the OxVox forum :

http://forum.oxvox.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&ampt=186

The discussion on here is better and being viewed and contributed to by far more people.

Yes - if you are interested in reading about errant apostrophes.

[Snake]

This is subject is also being discussed on the OxVox forum :

http://forum.oxvox.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&ampt=186

The discussion on here is better and being viewed and contributed to by far more people.

Agree, and in some ways I like the WPL filter/gag on what OV have to say as at least they check that things like &quotThis is subject is also being discussed on the OxVox forum&quot don't get into the official minutes.

I'm also surprised that OV still have a viable forum as I thought it died ages ago - or is Bob S. so bored that it's worth maintaining?

[slappy]

Perhaps the point about the North Stand doors is that a fans led campaign (some of whom I think had Oxvox connections) was instrumental in getting the club to allow the home fans to be able sit nearer to the half-way line, which required work doing. So why not ask Oxvox if there are funds? Isn't one of the Objectives of a Supporters' Trust to enable the supporters to contribute to the success of the Club?

Very carefully worded there Mark.

The problem term is what you mean by contribute. The word contribute has undertones of contributing cash, which is no doubt why you used it. The term involvement might be more suitable.

It's whatever the Oxvox constitution's Objects mean, which is where I copied it from. Putting up the South Stand year-boards is one contribution, helping fund the unbudgeted move of partitioning doors could be another. Or putting up an Oxvox advertising board below the scoreboard?

[GodalmingYellow]

Perhaps the point about the North Stand doors is that a fans led campaign (some of whom I think had Oxvox connections) was instrumental in getting the club to allow the home fans to be able sit nearer to the half-way line, which required work doing. So why not ask Oxvox if there are funds? Isn't one of the Objectives of a Supporters' Trust to enable the supporters to contribute to the success of the Club?

Very carefully worded there Mark.

The problem term is what you mean by contribute. The word contribute has undertones of contributing cash, which is no doubt why you used it. The term involvement might be more suitable.

It's whatever the Oxvox constitution's Objects mean, which is where I copied it from. Putting up the South Stand year-boards is one contribution, helping fund the unbudgeted move of partitioning doors could be another. Or putting up an Oxvox advertising board below the scoreboard?

As I said the problem is in how you are interpreting the term contribution. The term itself in the context of the objects is fine until it's meaning is distorted. Taking part of a single sentence, out of a document of objects, to interpret a distorted view is never a good idea.

Having had a big hand in the creation and writing of those very objects myself, I do know what was meant when they were written. There was never any mention of supplying Kelvin with cash on demand, it was about supporters joining in ownership of the club and contribution refers to skills and communication and ideas, not cash.

Putting up advertising hoardings are methods of marketing OxVox to a wider community for the furtherment of OxVox, the club does not receive a contribution in respect of those boards.

From the OxVox website:

Why should I join?

By joining together we can pool our ideas, present them to the club, and challenge it to move forward. Every member is important, everyone's ideas are valuable and everyone's views will count. We need a large membership so that all points of view are represented and all skills and talents harnessed.

Where will the money go?

You will be entitled to one share in OxVox (excluding Junior Members), giving you the right to attend meetings, speak, vote and stand for election to the committee which runs the Trust. You will receive a membership pack containing a badge, a membership card and a share certificate (membership certificate for Junior Members). Members get a periodic newsletter by email or post, free entry to members' meetings and the AGM, and discounts to any Trust-organised events, and there are some discounts with local organisations. Membership subscriptions will be used to cover the costs of running the Trust. Accounts are published annually.

See no mention of OxVox members' money being diverted to subsidise the club. Members' money is for running the trust only.

[Kernow Yellow]

I actually think these minutes cast Kelvin in a slightly dimmer light than was previously the case

I thought that too. Neither party comes out with much credit, especially from the 12th Man spat.

Having said that, I appreciate Mark S's reply, though he doesn't really address the 12th Man issue - either why OxVox is obsessed about taking credit for it and needs to discuss this at such length, seemingly to the detriment of its relationship with the club or why KT sees it as being somehow generous of the club to support an initiative which it (and only it) benefits from!

Regarding use of OxVox funds, if OxVox had specifically asked for something to happen at the stadium which would enhance the fans' experience of attending matches there, then I guess it's reasonable of the club to ask whether OxVox would be prepared to contribute to this (not saying OxVox should necessarily agree). If KT merely asked for help out of the blue towards a routine bit of work needed as we progress up the leagues, then this is a bit out of order. The minutes don't make this clear.

[slappy]

Perhaps one day the Club will be applying to the Football Stadia Improvement Fund for help with the 4th stand. It may not be wise to be seen to be too hand-in-hand with an 'independent' Supporters' Trust which has just fired off a nasty letter to the very same basically accusing them of having a vendetta against the FSF.

Similarly, arranging a pre-season against MK Dons possibly helps grease the FA wheels when it comes to matters like granting our Centres of Excellence a licence.

As for Oxvox not being allowed to contribute to the club financially, what on earth was it doing sponsoring tracksuits for the youth team? Or why did members of the Committee spend so much time on 12th Man which is about as blatant a subsidy as you can get, as 12th Man's only role is to provide transfer funds for the club?

[Matt D]

What is depressing is that the meeting happened without the wider fan community knowing in advance that it was taking place, so the opportunity to pose constructive questions was more or less limited to those who attended (and their close mates).

The meeting was flagged up in advance at the last OxVox members' meeting, and questions taken from that and put to Kelvin Thomas as noted in the meeting notes.

We've discussed the process of agreeing the notes before on this board, and I know you disagree Snake. But the view the Trust has always taken is that the notes from a meeting need to be agreed to be an accurate record of what was said by all parties present. That's certainly how any company I've worked for has operated as well, so I don't think it's an unreasonable position.

[GodalmingYellow]

Perhaps one day the Club will be applying to the Football Stadia Improvement Fund for help with the 4th stand. It may not be wise to be seen to be too hand-in-hand with an 'independent' Supporters' Trust which has just fired off a nasty letter to the very same basically accusing them of having a vendetta against the FSF.

Similarly, arranging a pre-season against MK Dons possibly helps grease the FA wheels when it comes to matters like granting our Centres of Excellence a licence.

As for Oxvox not being allowed to contribute to the club financially, what on earth was it doing sponsoring tracksuits for the youth team? Or why did members of the Committee spend so much time on 12th Man which is about as blatant a subsidy as you can get, as 12th Man's only role is to provide transfer funds for the club?

12th Man wasn't even remotely an OxVox subsidy of the club, because 12th Man Fund didn't and doesn't belong to OxVox. It is a much wider scheme with funds raised from a wide range of supporters by a wide range of supporters.

OxVox is very distinctly different. It is a trust operated for members by an elected committee to carry out the wishes of the members in accordance with its stated objectives. If it were not, the 12th Man fund would have had to have been included in the OxVox accounts, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to suggest that the trust auditors got the accounts wrong.

As for tracksuits, you'll have to ask the committee that authorised the spend to justify the cost in relation to the trust objectives.

OxVox funds belong to the trust members, not anyone else, for the purposes of running the trust. They are not for divvying up to OUFC Chairmen who have apparently no dignity or respect when demanding cash.

[Baboo]

So who holds the purse strings for the 12th man fund?
Never really thought about it before.

[slappy]

Terry I think you really are missing the point and digging yourself into a hole. The Objects include &quotcontribute to the success of the club&quot surely so that Oxvox is able to spend money on ad-hoc projects with the club, partiuclarly where projects might not otherwise be budgeted, planned or affordable. Ignore the FAQs and go back to the constitution - any reasonable person would argue that youth team tracksuits, heritage boards, helping administer the 12th Man fund, paying for ground improvements, all fall within the Objects.

Lots of other Trusts do the same, paying player wages, subsidising a youth team coach, giving a club bar a new tv etc. I know those are &quotother&quot trusts, but are we the only Trust that can only contribute by err, asking questions of the club, quiz nights, and promoting the Trust?

[Brahma Bull]

The 12th Man Fund belongs to the supporters and its success is down to those very core people who come in their thousands and have contributed to it, regardless of any involvement they have/had in the Supporters Trust.

However, OxVox’s role had been from the offset ‘administering’ the Fund and has been ‘heavily involved’ in most projects. The club have helped enormously by promotion and support so it should as it was directly benefiting.

In response to Mr Baboo, currently a three-man fund management committee decide on the approval of funds. They are Kelvin Thomas, Robert Newton and John Gould. John Gould replaced Neil Carter recently and OxVox administer and run the 'purse strings' and 'bank account'. Most will know John Gould as a new committee member and Trust Treasurer.

The Trust objectives include enabling the supporters to contribute to the success of the Club and to uphold and preserve the tradition and heritage of the Club.

With that objective in mind, the Trust suggested, helped implement and funded the Heritage Project. It had benefits including adding some colour to the stadium as well as displaying the clubs successes.

The Trust had always been a strong supporter of Youth Development, having sponsored age groups, we decided to sponsor the coaches for a change.

I am not sure members would like, albeit they would decide, if paying for ground improvements falls within our remits.

I went to this meeting along with a supporter who had raised the issue with the club, to discuss the safety and other issues surrounding the North Stand.

It was decided that to benefit home fans, the club would action some of the proposals including moving home fans or allowing them to sit closer to the half-way line and in turn, would need to make some safety improvements in the concourse.

In a later meeting (well the one of two weeks ago) the club chairman enquired about if we had funds which could help with that project. For information, we don't have a fund specific for this purpose and if we did, members would decide.

[Baboo]

Cheers BB.
If a fan who is not a member of OxVox but has a (supposed) bright idea on how to use the 12th man money, who should they approach?
I would also be interested to know how much money is currently in the fund. Anyone on here know?

[Brahma Bull]

At present the enquiries generally come through to OxVox via Mark, myself or Trevor Lambert as we use the OxVox email address as the point of contact. The club kindly forward leads and enquiries to us also.

At the moment, I administer the 12th Man Facebook site and the 12th Man website and leads are generated through that medium too.

We will be convening a 12th Man meeting shortly (announced very soon) where we will clarify a few things, discussing if the purpose should change, etc etc.

As for the fund total at present, it's just over £7000.00.

[GodalmingYellow]

Terry I think you really are missing the point and digging yourself into a hole. The Objects include &quotcontribute to the success of the club&quot surely so that Oxvox is able to spend money on ad-hoc projects with the club, partiuclarly where projects might not otherwise be budgeted, planned or affordable. Ignore the FAQs and go back to the constitution - any reasonable person would argue that youth team tracksuits, heritage boards, helping administer the 12th Man fund, paying for ground improvements, all fall within the Objects.

Lots of other Trusts do the same, paying player wages, subsidising a youth team coach, giving a club bar a new tv etc. I know those are &quotother&quot trusts, but are we the only Trust that can only contribute by err, asking questions of the club, quiz nights, and promoting the Trust?

Um no. I'm not digging anything Mark, but you have more or less simply repeated yourself, and you appear to have 2 shovels on the go at the same time! Perhaps you've chosen not to read my previous post, which I thought was reasonably clear. If you do so, you will realise that most, if not all, of the points you have raised twice, are simply not right.

I was on the original committee that devised the objects Mark, I still have all the meeting notes and emails. Whatever you want to interpret a few words out of context to mean, has no relevance to what was intended, or therefore, the actual meaning. The initial drafts of the minutes were written by Chris Davies from memory, and we then argued for weeks about what the final versions should be.

You can read BB's post which appears to be an accurate reflection of the position of the Trust. I think the tracksuits are borderline on justified trust spending, but not something I would want to argue with. The other spending appears to be entirely in accordance with the trust's objectives.

OxVox might want to consider starting a fund raising initiative ring fenced for the gate move (though I doubt it would be very successful), but that would be very different from spending the trust's members' money on ground development, as you bizarrely appear to desire.