Wimbledon

[tomoufc]

This is actually a good branch to the debate. I saw a documentary a few years ago about building new grounds which focussed on Derby and Bolton in particular. It showed the devastating effect on the local community that moving the grounds had. Businesses and pubs shut and the area declined rapidly.

There was an interesting piece in the Independent last week in a similar vein, but looking at the situation with Manchester City. The move from Maine Road basically ripped a large hole in the local community and fans still resident in that area were particularly miffed that the FA Cup winners parade actually went nowhere near the old ground.

'Hole' is a good description. I lived close to the ground recently. After several years it's still a massive rectangle of wasteland. Also a splendid pub near it closed recently, probably never to reopen. I'm guessing the relied on matchday trade.

[SmileyMan]

Finally, a decent argument not based on the 'poor ickle Wimbledon fans' (who abandoned their club when it needed them most argumentum ad misericordiam!

And finally, you show your true colours

Yellow &amp Blue

after much teasing. Wimbledon FC (or rather its board of directors) abandoned its fans, not the other way round, and it did so precisely because it didn't need them in MK.

WISA refused to meet with the club unless the MK option was ruled out. They then voted to boycott Wimbledon games no matter where they were being played. That was in May 2002, a full season before the actual move in September 2003.

If that's not abandoning the club, what is?

Had the club needed its fans, it wouldn't have moved. Your revisionism (note also the FSF debate above) is becoming increasingly transparent.

argumentum ad hominem, always fun!

By the way, nice to know you would have rejected the TVR proposal purely on pragmatic grounds, but that you would have supported them anyway, despite also 'hating' them (your word). So many contradictions there it's hard to know where to begin.

Try beginning by not taking my words out of context? I said that I would have been against the proposal, and that I would (probably, since it never happened, who really knows?) have hated them.

I then went on to say that if I had [hypothetically] continued to support them, would that mean that I deserved the treatment that has been dished out to the MK Dons fans? No statement of intent.

But let's start here - would you also have continued to support them in Guildford (a better MK Dons parallel), rather than Didcot? And expected other fans to do the same, or accuse them of abandoning their club (Maxwell) in its hour of need/greed?

As above, I don't think I would have supported them as the Royals and I feel very fortunate that I've never had to decide. But right now, I currently support them from the arse end of Kent. Oxford 'til I die, mate.

The reality is that there was no way that Wimbledon could have stayed in the locality and not gone bust. Developing the ground at Plough Lane was too expensive, and there were no other suitable locations. No miracle investor was waiting in the wings. If they'd gone into administration, there is absolutely no doubt that the receivers would have moved the club to MK if it was legal to do so and the plans were well advanced. Pretending that Wimbledon FC was somehow going to be in Wimbledon for ever more was delusonal at best.

I hope you don't mind if I bow out of this now. It's already several hundred more words than either club deserve. One last statto question though - are MK Dons the only league team we have never played?

[A-Ro]

One last statto question though - are MK Dons the only league team we have never played?

Yes.

[Mooro]

Would the receivers have done that - would they have been allowed to, would the FA (or the guy from Villa who could have voted the other way to stop it) have been quite so willing to allow it and what was the makeup of creditors and would they have been able to block it?
Then, if it got blocked, would someone else come in with an alternative plan, or even, would the AFCW crowd been able to either take over (doubtful), or more likely take prime position to take on the phoenix club role when it went under, but starting just 2/3 levels down (ie. the Conference) rather than at the bottom.

BTW Snake - I meant that league to replace their presence in their own domestic league, rather than in addition.

[Baboo]

And I can't believe that my 1000th post trundled past somewhere amongst all this shit

But it's not shit is it? There are a massive amount of fans of all other football clubs (league and non league I would suspect) that really loathe MK Dons and what they stand for. What makes this zealotry? You are strongly arguing a different line, presumably hoping to persuade people that you are right. Does this make you a zealot?

[Snake]

Does this mean that if Celtic and or Rangers were to be let into the English League system they would start in the Championship?

is that not the proposal anyway?

I still think that instead of those two joining the English league, they should tie up with the FAs of a few other similar countries (eg Belgium, Neths, Switz, Wales, Ireland x2) to make a Northern europe Superleague to sit on top of each of their current league systems.

For instance, put the top 2/3 clubs from each into a Super Division of say 16/18 clubs, then each season relegate the bottom4 to be replaced by domestic champion playoffs.
Eg - 16 team league made up of (current league leaders):
Scot - Rangers, Celtic, Hearts
Bel - Anderlecht, Genk, Gent
Holl - Ajax, Twente, PSV
Switz - Basle, Zurich, Young Boys
Austria - Sturm GRaz, Salzburg
Wales - BAngor, TNS
(perhaps add in Linfield and Shamrock from the Irish leagues too)

This would then provide decent competition for the top clubs, while keeping the link to the domestic leagues to allow some movement up/down.

To go one step further, you could do something similar with Scandinavia and one or more in Eastern Europe then have qualification for the European Cup as the top 'x' places from these leagues || 'n' teams from each of the big domestic leagues (England, Germany, France, Spain, Italy and Portugal)

Hasn’t that already been sort of invented? It’s called the Europa League and it’s on some obscure terrestrial channel every Thursday night during the football season. Top English contenders include Stoke, Birmingham City and maybe even Fulham or Blackpool on account of the fact they didn’t get up the ref’s nose all season so qualify by means of ‘fair play’. Great - a dozen and a half games against the likes of teams most football fans have never even heard of if you want to win it.

///

But I digress. If MKD went bust then for me that would be the only football club on the planet I would really celebrate going under and if we played them away the only chance of me turning up would be if I had a free ticket (and even then I'd take a can of spray paint in my pocket).

Now announced as Fulham - http://www.premierleague.com/page/FairPlayTable - by the smallest or margins. Who dreamed that farce up I wonder?

[Sackcloth Ox]

And I can't believe that my 1000th post trundled past somewhere amongst all this shit

But it's not shit is it? There are a massive amount of fans of all other football clubs (league and non league I would suspect) that really loathe MK Dons and what they stand for. What makes this zealotry? You are strongly arguing a different line, presumably hoping to persuade people that you are right. Does this make you a zealot?

Actually think this is a good thread. Some reasonable points have been made about the MK perspective.

I happen to 100% disagree with them though.

[Baboo]

Actually think this is a good thread. Some reasonable points have been made about the MK perspective.

I happen to 100% disagree with them though.

Me too, on both counts.

[laurence88]

SmileyMan wrote
As for AFC Wimbledon, and their rise through the leagues, try asking the fans of the other teams in those leagues what they thought about having one of their seasons effectively decided before a ball was kicked as a massively over-resourced club trampled all over them. They're regarded as a bullying monster that everyone is glad to be shot of.
.

Hmmmm, interesting take.

'everyone is glad to be shot of'

Not really sure I can agree with that, since I have seen so many letters, emails, text messages and more of congratulations for the club's success last Saturday in Manchester both from the clubs and fans.

Yes, I am sure you can spin that to suggest, others are glad to see the back of AFC Wimbledon, however, there are many, many clubs that really enjoyed seeing the grounds packed out, with good humour abounding, plus extra income, which have seen many put back on a positive financial footing, and others who have been able to improve their facilities too.

It has also raised the profile of the Combined Counties League and Ryman League, who accommodated the club at the lowest level of Senior Football - and that is the crucial part, Senior Football. Any lower, would have been Junior Football, and these are generally park football, and could not have coped with 1,500 to 2,000 fans showing up. So yes, AFC Wimbledon started at the lowest possible level for their status.

SmileyMan then wrote further
The one good thing to come out of the whole situation was the realisation that fan-run clubs was a concept that would work. Maybe in a century or two, when fan-run clubs are the norm, we'll all look back and laugh.

Now that is very correct and a fair comment. [/quote]

[laurence88]

SmileyMan wrote: WISA refused to meet with the club unless the MK option was ruled out. They then voted to boycott Wimbledon games no matter where they were being played. That was in May 2002, a full season before the actual move in September 2003.

If that's not abandoning the club, what is?

How are you aware of this?

I know you will find that WISA (up to 2001) and OWFF were meeting with Charles Koppel on a regular basis, and in fact Koppel, stopped meeting with WISA, saying 'the organisation did not reflect the views of real fans'.

A vote was organised amongst supporters (by the football club), and all places on OWFF were filled with WISA people (&amp WISA supporting people) barring one. Koppel attended some meetings, and then stopped because he realised he had lost that battle as well.

The fans (over 90%) didn't want Milton Keynes, and that was soon proved.