12th Man rethink?

[YF Dan]

I wonder if the 12th Man initiative has actually backfired a little. I can't help but think that it's actually allowed Chris Wilder too much license to tinker. The expression &quotkid in a candy shop&quot springs to mind with his scattergun signings this season.

I can't help but think we'd have been a lot better off working with what he had as opposed to attempting to build a largely new team mid-season. Very few of the mid-season signings have added anything...I wonder the damage so many new short-term signings does to morale.

I also worry that Wilder gives up on players too quickly - and having the slush fund has contributed to this.

Perhaps the 12th Man money (because I remain in favour of the concept) should be used to pay for one player at the start of a season - on a proper long term contract. That way the signing wouldn't be made on a whim - hopefully.

[Brahma Bull]

Dan, I said the same very thing last night. The signings so far have been hit and miss but plenty of other signings have been made without the support of the 12th Man.

Thankfully a 12th Man meeting is being arranged, with all interested individuals and groups invited. Invitations will be sent in the near future.

[Snake]

I wonder if the 12th Man initiative has actually backfired a little. I can't help but think that it's actually allowed Chris Wilder too much license to tinker. The expression &quotkid in a candy shop&quot springs to mind with his scattergun signings this season.

You can’t buy a lot of candy with twenty five grand even in Division Five, so I don’t think that’s a big issue.

[Ascension Ox]

I wonder if the 12th Man initiative has actually backfired a little. I can't help but think that it's actually allowed Chris Wilder too much license to tinker. The expression &quotkid in a candy shop&quot springs to mind with his scattergun signings this season.

I can't help but think we'd have been a lot better off working with what he had as opposed to attempting to build a largely new team mid-season. Very few of the mid-season signings have added anything...I wonder the damage so many new short-term signings does to morale.

I also worry that Wilder gives up on players too quickly - and having the slush fund has contributed to this.

Perhaps the 12th Man money (because I remain in favour of the concept) should be used to pay for one player at the start of a season - on a proper long term contract. That way the signing wouldn't be made on a whim - hopefully.

And what if the player in question breaks his leg in the first game?

If we go up well the 12th Man has played its part, if we don't then at least we tried.

[ty cobb]

It's up to Wilder what he does with the money he's the manager. What are we going to do - dictate to him who he buys?

Reality is, it all goes into the same pot, the club could say the money has all gone into signing Beano say, but then use that money to tinker.

Giving 12th man credit for lots of different signings keeps the interest going.

Trust Wilder, especially at this point of the season, we don't need to divide the fans now.

[GodalmingYellow]

Dan, I said the same very thing last night. The signings so far have been hit and miss but plenty of other signings have been made without the support of the 12th Man.

Thankfully a 12th Man meeting is being arranged, with all interested individuals and groups invited. Invitations will be sent in the near future.

You mean an OxVox meeting?

[GodalmingYellow]

I wonder if the 12th Man initiative has actually backfired a little. I can't help but think that it's actually allowed Chris Wilder too much license to tinker. The expression &quotkid in a candy shop&quot springs to mind with his scattergun signings this season.

I can't help but think we'd have been a lot better off working with what he had as opposed to attempting to build a largely new team mid-season. Very few of the mid-season signings have added anything...I wonder the damage so many new short-term signings does to morale.

I also worry that Wilder gives up on players too quickly - and having the slush fund has contributed to this.

Perhaps the 12th Man money (because I remain in favour of the concept) should be used to pay for one player at the start of a season - on a proper long term contract. That way the signing wouldn't be made on a whim - hopefully.

And what if the player in question breaks his leg in the first game?

If we go up well the 12th Man has played its part, if we don't then at least we tried.

I think the point that Dan was raising is that by trying, did we make it too easy for Wilder to be tempted into unnecessary tinkering which has unsettled the side.

[GodalmingYellow]

It's up to Wilder what he does with the money he's the manager. What are we going to do - dictate to him who he buys?

Reality is, it all goes into the same pot, the club could say the money has all gone into signing Beano say, but then use that money to tinker.

Giving 12th man credit for lots of different signings keeps the interest going.

Trust Wilder, especially at this point of the season, we don't need to divide the fans now.

I agree we must continue to trust Wilder as he got us into top place. But that should not mean we cannot question his judgement sometimes when things don't go so well.

[Ascension Ox]

I wonder if the 12th Man initiative has actually backfired a little. I can't help but think that it's actually allowed Chris Wilder too much license to tinker. The expression &quotkid in a candy shop&quot springs to mind with his scattergun signings this season.

I can't help but think we'd have been a lot better off working with what he had as opposed to attempting to build a largely new team mid-season. Very few of the mid-season signings have added anything...I wonder the damage so many new short-term signings does to morale.

I also worry that Wilder gives up on players too quickly - and having the slush fund has contributed to this.

Perhaps the 12th Man money (because I remain in favour of the concept) should be used to pay for one player at the start of a season - on a proper long term contract. That way the signing wouldn't be made on a whim - hopefully.

And what if the player in question breaks his leg in the first game?

If we go up well the 12th Man has played its part, if we don't then at least we tried.

I think the point that Dan was raising is that by trying, did we make it too easy for Wilder to be tempted into unnecessary tinkering which has unsettled the side.

Too early to conclude anything yet, Chalmers/Grant/Tonkin could yet win us the league.

[GodalmingYellow]

And what if the player in question breaks his leg in the first game?

If we go up well the 12th Man has played its part, if we don't then at least we tried.

I think the point that Dan was raising is that by trying, did we make it too easy for Wilder to be tempted into unnecessary tinkering which has unsettled the side.

Too early to conclude anything yet, Chalmers/Grant/Tonkin could yet win us the league.

The trouble with being excessively positive, is that by the time you realise it ain't gonna work, it's too late to do anything about it.

Questions shouls always be raised on non-performance, and excuses never given.

[Ancient Colin]

At the risk of enraging considerable portions of the forum, I am not entirely sure why I &quotshould trust Wilder&quot. The case made is that he got us to the top of the league, but being top in December isn't really relevant and could perhaps be attributed to resources.

There's certainly a case against:

(a) unclear judgement on players brought in (e.g. Kelly, Rhodes, Fowler, FGreen, Cook(?) come to mind without thinking all the way back)
(b) unclear judgement in favouring the new players over existing squad players for no obvious gain
(c) questions about playing formations (for me, a lot of the problems start from the acquisition of Cook, the move to a one/three up front structure to accommodate and then the dogmatic sticking with that whatever the personnel, which also changed the role of Murray from leader to &quotlet's find a place to accommodate him&quot) playing players out of position (Midson out wide, Murray wide left)
(d) questions about substitutions - in particular substitutions that result in unbalanced formations and substantial shifts in roles that rarely seem to work and create a formless mess with out-of-position players, gaps and loss of control) or that seem to take off key players (most recently Green against Cambridge)
(e) questions about playing style and the deterioration of performance - we seem to have moved to a &quotplay the ball down the channels and chase&quot side from a passing and creative side
(f) questions about basics: corners, shambolic freekicks, lack of any sense of purpose on throw ins
(g) a sense of a culture of &quotblame the players&quot.

Now (and I recognise that this paragraph will be ignored), there are clearly positives and a &quotcase for&quot to be made and I am, to some extent, playing devil's advocate. But I think these are legitimate concerns and they are concerns that I have been expressing for quite some time, not simply on the back of Stevenage passing us.

I hope I am just being Eeyore, but I fear that I am not. And I certainly don't see why I should blindly &quottrust Wilder&quot for a position in December, any more that I blindly &quottrusted Atkins&quot, &quottrusted Jim&quot or even &quottrusted Darren&quot when he put together his long succesful run of results.

[Ascension Ox]

I think the point that Dan was raising is that by trying, did we make it too easy for Wilder to be tempted into unnecessary tinkering which has unsettled the side.

Too early to conclude anything yet, Chalmers/Grant/Tonkin could yet win us the league.

The trouble with being excessively positive, is that by the time you realise it ain't gonna work, it's too late to do anything about it.

Questions shouls always be raised on non-performance, and excuses never given.

I would hardly say my posting was 'excessively positive'. Stop cranking it up and go do some work.

[GodalmingYellow]

Too early to conclude anything yet, Chalmers/Grant/Tonkin could yet win us the league.

The trouble with being excessively positive, is that by the time you realise it ain't gonna work, it's too late to do anything about it.

Questions shouls always be raised on non-performance, and excuses never given.

I would hardly say my posting was 'excessively positive'. Stop cranking it up and go do some work.

It wasn't excessively positive. I was generalising about your approach.

I'm in my sick bed so can't go to work, so now I'm bored, so you'll have to put up with the inevitable cranking it up.

[SmileyMan]

I wonder if the 12th Man fund would stretch to buying certain people some new keyboards - ones with &quotdelete&quot keys...

On A-Col's list:

(a) - don't agree, he's made some pretty decent signings as well, and if he was Arsene Wenger he wouldn't be here
(b) - agree. There's a definite &quotnew toy&quot effect when players come into the squad
(c) - There was a definite switch from &quotplaying the best players, and getting a formation to suit&quot to &quotplaying a formation, and fitting in the players&quot which coincided with the drop in form. If I had five minutes with Wilder's ear, this is what I'd concentrate on
(d) - disagree - he's shown the ability to make game-changing substitutions before, and it doesn't seem to me to be the sort of skill you lose. Last night could be excused on injury grounds
(e) - probably explained by too much changing of personnel and tactics. Nothing beats matches together to get players understanding each other properly
(f) - t'was ever thus. Change the coaching staff...
(g) - don't quite agree. Wilder does a good job of never criticising players in public - when he does it usually means that player is for the chop anyway.

[Brahma Bull]

You mean an OxVox meeting?

Very Good

However, you wouldn't believe it anyway, especially if you use the same source as before

Furthermore, a 12th Man Meeting, which will be open to everyone and I suspect lots and lots of new people and contributions, will have more attendance than the recent AGM.

See you there, I'll buy you a drink for being nasty to me. Snake and Boris can get me one in each