The two separate rumours

[GodalmingYellow]

The industry I work in is very much based on performence related pay - it really does seperate the hard workers who are good at their job from the ones who really can't be bothered and are just there to pick a pay cheque up every week.

Even if I weren't sceptical about this (in my experience people say this when they're doing well - when they're not, they query the basis on which performance is measured) it does tend to assume that performance is measurable. Is it, at a football club? In a team sense it certainly is. In an individual sense it's a lot harder because individuals' results aren't individually achieved.

I'm not saying it doesn't have a role. But I am saying that it's something of a blunt instrument and its efficacy is overrated. And I suspect that players' contracts at Oxford, as it is, may have a substantial performance element.

And don't forget that we compete with other clubs for players. You have to match what other clubs offer, on the whole, and for that reasons I again suspect that contracts may not vary that much from club to club. But it's something I think we probably know less about than we might.

I agree to an extent that performance is more difficult to measure on an individual basis, but elements such as goals scored, assists, clean sheets can be biased towards strikers, midfielders and defenders/keepers respectively.

I disagree that contracts will be similar to other clubs. The notion that Stafford Rangers or Northwich Vics would be able to pay any player £50k || per year blows that one out of the water. I suspect there is a huge margin between contract values of differnet clubs.

[Pe├▒a Oxford United]

Of course, but I don't mean that all clubs pay the same - though you do hear football people claiming that clubs have to match the contracts offered at bigger clubs in their division. What I mean is that I suspect they're quite close in nature, i.e. comprised of different components of difference weights. But we don't have a clue, surely, whether Oxford contracts are relatively heavy on bonuses or the other way around. Like I say, we don't really know that much about it.

elements such as goals scored, assists, clean sheets can be biased towards strikers, midfielders and defenders/keepers respectively.

So they can - but none of these things are achieved independently, are they?

Actually I'd have an uninformed guess that they're more likely to play a sizeable contractual role at the player's insistence (or their agents) rather than the club's.

[GodalmingYellow]

Of course, but I don't mean that all clubs pay the same - though you do hear football people claiming that clubs have to match the contracts offered at bigger clubs in their division. What I mean is that I suspect they're quite close in nature, i.e. comprised of different components of difference weights. But we don't have a clue, surely, whether Oxford contracts are relatively heavy on bonuses or the other way around. Like I say, we don't really know that much about it.

elements such as goals scored, assists, clean sheets can be biased towards strikers, midfielders and defenders/keepers respectively.

So they can - but none of these things are achieved independently, are they?

Actually I'd have an uninformed guess that they're more likely to play a sizeable contractual role at the player's insistence (or their agents) rather than the club's.

OK, I mis-understood what you were saying on the first point POU. I have a feeling that the PFA provide a proforma contract type for use by clubs and agents, which is then varied as and when necessary. If that's right, I imagine your supposition is probably reasonably accurate.

I agree the elements are not achieved individually, but it is not beyond the wit of man (though at times with our club I question that) to come up with a fair distribution of bonuses. So a goal scored will fetch the scorer x amount, the assist will fetch the assister another amount, and there may be a team bonus element for goals scored which all players playing share in. Similarly for defending, you might expect keepers and defenders to earn the most from clean sheets. A little thought could result in a reasonable structure.

[Pe├▒a Oxford United]

I agree the elements are not achieved individually, but it is not beyond the wit of man (though at times with our club I question that) to come up with a fair distribution of bonuses. So a goal scored will fetch the scorer x amount, the assist will fetch the assister another amount, and there may be a team bonus element for goals scored which all players playing share in. Similarly for defending, you might expect keepers and defenders to earn the most from clean sheets. A little thought could result in a reasonable structure.

Well, it is possible that such already exists. But it's also possible that it's not a good idea: is it helpful for morale if the defender's errors costs the goalkeeper his bonus? It might be, but it might not. And I wonder - is anybody's through ball going to be more incisive because there's a few quid more if the striker scores? I mean it's not as if they're going to put it into the stands otherwise, is it?

I'm unconvinced that individual bonuses are in general a useful motivational tool in football. If they were, I think it'd be common knowledge by now.

[Mooro]

What do you get for laying an open goal on a plate for your striker only for him to screw the shot woefully wide?

Actually, perhaps a base figure from which fines for incompetence may be more appropriate for some of our lot (missing sitters, ducking out of headers, offside, wide players watching attacks rather than making runs, etc)

[Pe├▒a Oxford United]

I also suspect that it vastly overcomplicates a simple process. I don't mean that motivating people (or oneself) is simple - plainly it's not. But it's not complicated, either, it's just hard. And motivation itself, the feeling of being motivated, is simple in the sense of not being about complication, but about feeling, about wanting. Though money will come into it if (rightly or wrongly) you're feeling hard-done-by, it's surely not really about financial structures.

[scooter]

Whatever system is in place at the club it obviously isn't working.

It is a team game and the incentives should bind the individuals together to fight for each other and create a desire to win.

How many times do you see anyone apart from Elvis, Day or Foster having a go at other players, geeing them up, having a shout at them to concentrate etc.

Our lack of team spirit is a combination of several things, lots of loan players, wrong captain, bonus scheme that doesn't work and probably several other elements I can't think of right now.

[GodalmingYellow]

I agree the elements are not achieved individually, but it is not beyond the wit of man (though at times with our club I question that) to come up with a fair distribution of bonuses. So a goal scored will fetch the scorer x amount, the assist will fetch the assister another amount, and there may be a team bonus element for goals scored which all players playing share in. Similarly for defending, you might expect keepers and defenders to earn the most from clean sheets. A little thought could result in a reasonable structure.

Well, it is possible that such already exists. But it's also possible that it's not a good idea: is it helpful for morale if the defender's errors costs the goalkeeper his bonus? It might be, but it might not. And I wonder - is anybody's through ball going to be more incisive because there's a few quid more if the striker scores? I mean it's not as if they're going to put it into the stands otherwise, is it?

I'm unconvinced that individual bonuses are in general a useful motivational tool in football. If they were, I think it'd be common knowledge by now.

I'm obviously rather more convinced by it than you!

The question is whether a player (and indeed a team) is more or less likely to bust a gut getting to a ball to score, make a vital tackle, throw themselves in the way of a shot, work harder in training, maintain a healthier lifestyle, avoid taking time out for questionable injuries, even concentrate and focus more, if they are better rewarded for those &quotextra&quot efforts?

How many times have we seen players apparently give up too easily, not make an effort, pull out of a tackle, not bother going for a ball they might have reached and so on. These are indicators of insufficient incentives to go the extra yard.

If an employer tells an employee they will get an extra 10% earnings if they complete their work in 10% less time, it's amazing how much more work the employer can get out of them. Very generalised I know, but you see what I'm getting at.

[Pe├▒a Oxford United]

How many times have we seen players apparently give up too easily, not make an effort, pull out of a tackle, not bother going for a ball they might have reached and so on. These are indicators of insufficient incentives to go the extra yard.

If I were a footballer's agent I would want to negotiate contracts saying &quotgoing for ball I have a chance of reaching, fifty quid&quot. It'd be brilliant. You'd always be busy.

Very generalised I know, but you see what I'm getting at.

It's not the idea that eludes me, it's the likely application...

[DLT]

I remember having a conversation with a past chairman after we had lost 3-2 with Andy Scott scoring both our goals. He was moaning because Scott had earnt 2K in wages and 1K per goal.

We both commented how we were amazed how crap Scott's shooting was when he was on 1K a goal.

I suggested that rewarding a goalscorer like that was not good for team spirit. The answer was that Kinnear always did deals like that.

[Snake]

Better idea - buy the Gypsy a crate of Southern Comfort each Christmas.

[Snake]

I remember having a conversation with a past chairman after we had lost 3-2 with Andy Scott scoring both our goals. He was moaning because Scott had earnt 2K in wages and 1K per goal.

We both commented how we were amazed how crap Scott's shooting was when he was on 1K a goal.

I suggested that rewarding a goalscorer like that was not good for team spirit. The answer was that Kinnear always did deals like that.

What Kinnear also did was offer players more money in the pre-contract discussions than he was authorised to do.

Maybe he got away with that when dealing with his previous Chairmen, but not with FK. That was mainly why he walked out and left KempOut in charge, citing “health reasons

[boris]

Individual bonuses in a team game seems to me such an obviously wrong idea that I'm amazed people even suggest it, never mind that it's common practice in football. Win bonuses I can understand and approve of heartily, but possibly the only other bonus in a team game would be one related to crowd size, otherwise all the problems mentioned above by Peña come into play.

At our workplace HR tried to implement performance-related pay, but it proved unpopular - divisive, bad for morale, and impossible to quantify for most jobs - and so the union managed to negotiate it into history. Victory for the people, and all that.

[ty cobb]

Individual bonuses in a team game seems to me such an obviously wrong idea that I'm amazed people even suggest it, never mind that it's common practice in football. Win bonuses I can understand and approve of heartily, but possibly the only other bonus in a team game would be one related to crowd size, otherwise all the problems mentioned above by Peña come into play.

At our workplace HR tried to implement performance-related pay, but it proved unpopular - divisive, bad for morale, and impossible to quantify for most jobs - and so the union managed to negotiate it into history. Victory for the people, and all that.

Well of course that approach won't work for you laid back hippys at Oxfam

Agree about individual bonusus, how about for a player earning £1,000 (after win bonus) currently, could change to

£500 basic
£250 if picked in squad
£100 for a draw
£250 for a win

so those not playing well enough to get in the team get £500 and will bust a gut to make sure they get in a future squad or will go elsewhere - which would also be a good thing if not good enough to get in the team. Any player who thinks they're good enough would think they would get paid the same, and it would discourage those who see it as a wage packet to pick up.

Of course should a player get injured the situation would be different.

[GodalmingYellow]

Individual bonuses in a team game seems to me such an obviously wrong idea that I'm amazed people even suggest it, never mind that it's common practice in football. Win bonuses I can understand and approve of heartily, but possibly the only other bonus in a team game would be one related to crowd size, otherwise all the problems mentioned above by Peña come into play.

At our workplace HR tried to implement performance-related pay, but it proved unpopular - divisive, bad for morale, and impossible to quantify for most jobs - and so the union managed to negotiate it into history. Victory for the people, and all that.

You mean those that weren't performing complained about it and the Union called &quoteverybody out&quot.