Fans forum

[Snake]

Just had a quick peek at the latest set of documents lodged at Companies House this morning. Nothing of real interest in there, but it did remind me that the last set of accounts were filed in June 2013.

[tomoufc]

Thanks for the replies. My aim was to inject a bit of heat into the discussion, and it generated a little bit of fire.

As Snake says we're very much reliant on Eales's debt funding continuing. The thing that confuses me is any kind of plan that people can look at and think 'yeah that might just work'. I'm not sure I accept the idea that if we get into the Championship the issue of stadium ownership becomes less important. The costs of running a team that might survive there are much higher than when I began supporting in the late 90s. Look at what happened to Coventry City - a team with a higher support historically - after their move to the Ricoh.

[tomoufc]

Just had a quick peek at the latest set of documents lodged at Companies House this morning. Nothing of real interest in there, but it did remind me that the last set of accounts were filed in June 2013.

How often to the have to be filed?

[GodalmingYellow]

Just had a quick peek at the latest set of documents lodged at Companies House this morning. Nothing of real interest in there, but it did remind me that the last set of accounts were filed in June 2013.

How often to the have to be filed?

Normal filing deadline is 9 months after the end of the accounting year.

All football clubs have an accounting year ended 31 May or 30 June (most use 30 June), because of the timespan covered by the football season, so each set of accounts represents an entire season.

OUFC use 30 June, so accounts are supposed to be filed with Companies House and HMRC by the following 31 March.

Failure to meet the deadline results in automatic late filing penalties (£100 each for accounts and CT Return). there are subsequent deadlines as well, and the failure to meet each one results in increasing penalties.

Failure to meet several deadlines with Companies House leads to an automated process resulting in dissolution of the company, which can only be stopped by submission of the outstanding accounts. HMRC never stop and just keep imposing ever greater penalties and eventually chase the directors personally.

Snake isn't quite right with the information he posted. The accounts were for the year ended 30 June 2013, and were filed well within the first deadline on 22 January 2014 (ie 2 months early). So the club accounts are up to date. The accounts for the year ended 30 June 2014, should be filed by 31 March 2015.

[Brahma Bull]

My cat just pointed out this link to me. OV are on the ball in getting it out so quickly.

http://www.intouchwithmembers.co.uk/lib ... ep2014.pdf

Pesky Cat.

[Kernow Yellow]

Also "tax-dodging". If GY happened to put an advert for his business in the match-day programme, and claim a tax deduction as advertising, would that be tax dodging?
I'd guess the cost to the three kit sponsors are pretty small, and if they get tax-relief for legitimate advertising, it's hardly in the realms of a Double Irish Dutch sandwich. Not dissimilar to Animalates last year - in the absence of a decent paying sponsor, keep it in the family if the 'value' is more.

Agree that Tom is getting a bit carried away with tax-dodging conspiracies. But there is a bit of a difference with the Animalates situation, in that they didn't seem to 'pay' *anything* for their sponsorship to offset the club's debts (owed to the owner of both companies). Which, given that Lenagan doesn't seem to want to write off all his loans, seems a bit negligent as it put the club further into trouble.

I believe it has been confirmed that BnR are 'paying' something, so it at least makes the club's accounts look better. And even if they're not (or it's a derisory sum), that doesn't matter if Eales really is going to forget about any money he loans the club. That's the bit I'm suspicious of though. Does he just mean cash loans? Does it include the preference shares which have recently been issued? Or will he want them bought out? What debts does the club currently have and to whom anyway? How much to WPL? How much to ENSCO? Any other parties? Is interest being charged on any of it?

What is of concern was Neil's unanswered second half of the question of how long Eales would support the losses. It was very admirable to say that he was the only source of finance and so no-one else would be owed anything. But if Eales walked away today even writing off all debts, the club would have no money and significant ongoing costs, players and bills to pay, the new Championship-esque infrastructure put in place. So how long could or will Eales fund the club? I think it's been said the budget is for £1.5MM loss, and on our current low crowds that could easily be £2MM per year. Very worrying.

Very true, and with reference to my questions above the club might still have significant debts to parties other than Eales, rather than just ongoing cost commitments.

Or am I misunderstanding things?

[GodalmingYellow]

Also "tax-dodging". If GY happened to put an advert for his business in the match-day programme, and claim a tax deduction as advertising, would that be tax dodging?
I'd guess the cost to the three kit sponsors are pretty small, and if they get tax-relief for legitimate advertising, it's hardly in the realms of a Double Irish Dutch sandwich. Not dissimilar to Animalates last year - in the absence of a decent paying sponsor, keep it in the family if the 'value' is more.

Agree that Tom is getting a bit carried away with tax-dodging conspiracies. But there is a bit of a difference with the Animalates situation, in that they didn't seem to 'pay' *anything* for their sponsorship to offset the club's debts (owed to the owner of both companies). Which, given that Lenagan doesn't seem to want to write off all his loans, seems a bit negligent as it put the club further into trouble.

I believe it has been confirmed that BnR are 'paying' something, so it at least makes the club's accounts look better. And even if they're not (or it's a derisory sum), that doesn't matter if Eales really is going to forget about any money he loans the club. That's the bit I'm suspicious of though. Does he just mean cash loans? Does it include the preference shares which have recently been issued? Or will he want them bought out? What debts does the club currently have and to whom anyway? How much to WPL? How much to ENSCO? Any other parties? Is interest being charged on any of it?

What is of concern was Neil's unanswered second half of the question of how long Eales would support the losses. It was very admirable to say that he was the only source of finance and so no-one else would be owed anything. But if Eales walked away today even writing off all debts, the club would have no money and significant ongoing costs, players and bills to pay, the new Championship-esque infrastructure put in place. So how long could or will Eales fund the club? I think it's been said the budget is for £1.5MM loss, and on our current low crowds that could easily be £2MM per year. Very worrying.

Very true, and with reference to my questions above the club might still have significant debts to parties other than Eales, rather than just ongoing cost commitments.

Or am I misunderstanding things?

It was a very good post from Slappy. That's several in a row now!!

Are the loan notes in preparation for paying off Lenagan's debts? If so, then we may be left only with debts to Eales. Slappy knows more about this than I do as he has spent some time investigating it.

[Snake]

Just had a quick peek at the latest set of documents lodged at Companies House this morning. Nothing of real interest in there, but it did remind me that the last set of accounts were filed in June 2013.

How often to the have to be filed?

Normal filing deadline is 9 months after the end of the accounting year.

All football clubs have an accounting year ended 31 May or 30 June (most use 30 June), because of the timespan covered by the football season, so each set of accounts represents an entire season.

OUFC use 30 June, so accounts are supposed to be filed with Companies House and HMRC by the following 31 March.

Failure to meet the deadline results in automatic late filing penalties (£100 each for accounts and CT Return). there are subsequent deadlines as well, and the failure to meet each one results in increasing penalties.

Failure to meet several deadlines with Companies House leads to an automated process resulting in dissolution of the company, which can only be stopped by submission of the outstanding accounts. HMRC never stop and just keep imposing ever greater penalties and eventually chase the directors personally.

Snake isn't quite right with the information he posted. The accounts were for the year ended 30 June 2013, and were filed well within the first deadline on 22 January 2014 (ie 2 months early). So the club accounts are up to date. The accounts for the year ended 30 June 2014, should be filed by 31 March 2015.

I didn't say they were late.

[GodalmingYellow]

I didn't say they were late.

You did, because you said the last set of accounts to be filed with Companies House were filed in June 2013. As it would not be possible for the June 2013 accounts to be filed in June 2013, that indicates the June 2012 accounts or earlier, which would have had to be filed by 31 March 2013 to be on time. As you also said they were the last accounts to be filed, that would make the June 2013 accounts late as well as they would have had to be filed by 31 March 2014. Hence you effectively said they were late, albeit that probably wasn't what you meant.

[Snake]

I didn't say they were late.

You did, because you said the last set of accounts to be filed with Companies House were filed in June 2013. As it would not be possible for the June 2013 accounts to be filed in June 2013, that indicates the June 2012 accounts or earlier, which would have had to be filed by 31 March 2013 to be on time. As you also said they were the last accounts to be filed, that would make the June 2013 accounts late as well as they would have had to be filed by 31 March 2014. Hence you effectively said they were late, albeit that probably wasn't what you meant.

I didn't say they were late.

Didn't, didn't, didn't

[slappy]

The loan notes:
Ensco has authorised up to £10MM of 5% loan notes due in 2019. These are typically used to pay someone, but with a delay, or as a way of spreading capital gains over a number of years.
I doubt the whole of this is being given to Ian Lenagan / Woodstock Partners in return for their debt/shares. But it does for example allow Ensco to buy out some or all of WPL's loans, but not have to pay in cash for five years.

The Share Purchase Agreement/ the Put and Call Option Agreement:
Unseen, but other documents refer to them, and the shareholders' rights to put/call shares in the future. i.e. Ensco can demand WPL sell shares; WPL can demand Ensco buy shares; and vice versa I assume. What circumstances would trigger these put/calls? The stadium deal seems to be way down on the back-burner now.

I do wonder why WPL retain their 38% minority holding in the club. It gives them some shareholders' rights, i.e. can stop any votes needing a 75% majority. Perhaps it is to keep some glimmer of hope of getting money back if there is ever a further takeover of the club for more money than just taking on the debts of the club.
---
I don't think there is anything particularly sinister or worrying about this, other than the money needs to be found in five years time to pay off any loan notes issued (or the debt otherwise restructured).

[tomoufc]

Copied from YF:

Just in case any members haven't seen/didn't get the email, a quick post to say OxVox are holding a member meeting on Saturday 4th October, ahead of the Newport game. The meeting will be held at 1.30pm in the Landmark Room in the Quadrangle prior to the U’s home game against Newport.

This is an opportunity for members to discuss the recent Fans' Forum: we are keen to understand OxVox members' views of the takeover of the club following the Forum.

Notes on the Forum from two of the Committee members, Myles and Matt, are here: www.oxvox.org.uk/UserFiles/Image/FansForum25Sep2014.pdf.

The forum saw straightforward and specific answers to the questions that were asked from the floor, and our feeling is that there's a clear personal and financial commitment on the part of our new owners, along with a considered long-term strategy for the Club that seems promising to us.

The Club have also made clear that they are interested in trying new initiatives and experimenting (discounting matchday tickets in connection with increased attendances, and Friday night football were two discussed at the Forum), and have asked supporters to make suggestions, so we'll also gauge member views on these and any other ideas people have.

We are keen to hear what you think, so hope to see you on Saturday.

Cheers!

Matt (on behalf of the OxVox Committee).

Read more: http://yellowsforum.co.uk/thread/19191/ ... z3F6I0otWv

[tomoufc]

Copied from YF:

Just in case any members haven't seen/didn't get the email, a quick post to say OxVox are holding a member meeting on Saturday 4th October, ahead of the Newport game. The meeting will be held at 1.30pm in the Landmark Room in the Quadrangle prior to the U’s home game against Newport.

This is an opportunity for members to discuss the recent Fans' Forum: we are keen to understand OxVox members' views of the takeover of the club following the Forum.

Notes on the Forum from two of the Committee members, Myles and Matt, are here: www.oxvox.org.uk/UserFiles/Image/FansForum25Sep2014.pdf.

The forum saw straightforward and specific answers to the questions that were asked from the floor, and our feeling is that there's a clear personal and financial commitment on the part of our new owners, along with a considered long-term strategy for the Club that seems promising to us.

The Club have also made clear that they are interested in trying new initiatives and experimenting (discounting matchday tickets in connection with increased attendances, and Friday night football were two discussed at the Forum), and have asked supporters to make suggestions, so we'll also gauge member views on these and any other ideas people have.

We are keen to hear what you think, so hope to see you on Saturday.

Cheers!

Matt (on behalf of the OxVox Committee).

Read more: http://yellowsforum.co.uk/thread/19191/ ... z3F6I0otWv