OUFC Women

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OtmoorYellow
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OUFC Women

Post by OtmoorYellow » Mon May 28, 2018 12:06 pm

https://www.oufc.co.uk/news/2018/may/ox ... ted-women/

Contrary to the club's statement, this sends out a very bad message of lack of investment, in what will be a huge growth area in the wider game.

Not good news.

If Lewes can do it, only a dis-interested owner prevents OUFC doing it.

SmileyMan
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Re: OUFC Women

Post by SmileyMan » Tue May 29, 2018 12:30 pm

The FA have turned the women's game into a franchise operation, for one year, to let a couple of "big clubs" that have up to now not supported the WSL, buy their way into the top divisions.

Next year, of course, the plan is to revert to the pyramid structure, pulling up the drawbridge. It absolutely stinks, and if this happened in the men's game there would be riots.

Radley Rambler
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Re: OUFC Women

Post by Radley Rambler » Tue May 29, 2018 1:19 pm

So who is to blame here - is it the club, the FA or a bit of both?

I don't know enough about it to comment but would be interested if anyone is more informed.

On a personal level, I've never been a great fan of women's football (OUFC or otherwise) - the speed of it and the lack of goalkeeping ability just spoils it for me. Same applies for women's cricket. However, if it encourages girls to become interested in football and thus helps the game and OUFC through increased attendances/a greater number of families attending then I can see how it is a positive initiative.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: OUFC Women

Post by OtmoorYellow » Tue May 29, 2018 2:19 pm

SmileyMan wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 12:30 pm
The FA have turned the women's game into a franchise operation, for one year, to let a couple of "big clubs" that have up to now not supported the WSL, buy their way into the top divisions.

Next year, of course, the plan is to revert to the pyramid structure, pulling up the drawbridge. It absolutely stinks, and if this happened in the men's game there would be riots.
That's not how I see it. There are no fake clubs being created, there are no movements in geographical locations.

This is about expanding the number of clubs in the top 2 divisions, whilst also aiming to ensure minimum standards, in what will be the divisions most on show to the wider public, which is very important as the game, which is professionally still in its infancy, expands. I believe I am correct in saying this is currently the fastest growing sport in the world.

It would surely be counter-productive to the progression of the women's game, to keep the existing clubs from the WSL, where they do not wish to maintain standards of professionalism, which will be seen by the public. To do so would simply result in unfair competition with bizarre scorelines as WSL professional champions Chelsea put 16 goals past every amateur opposition. That would be detrimental. Certainly in the longer term we need to see a permanent pyramid structure in order to have the cream rising to the top and to ensure achievement is rewarded. But the women's game is currently in transformation from amateur to professional, and the game as a whole needs more full time professional teams for credibility.

There are requirements to introduce and maintain academies and other standards, which will have longer benefits.

All WSL clubs were given the opportunity to join the new structure before any outside clubs were even able to apply to join, and all clubs that met the requirements of professional standards for the new structure, were guaranteed their place. So no franchising at the expense of anyone.

The issue for OUFC is a lack of willingness to invest in the women's team to maintain those professional standards. And in all honesty, that has been a problem for the women's team throughout its time in WSL2, hence why the club struggled badly against teams who did want to invest and progress.

The statement by the club that it sees the best way forward as being a portal for local talent in the county, clearly precludes investment in talent from other clubs. Sure local talent has to be one source of finding players, but just like in the men's game, to improve, you have to bring talent in from elsewhere.

Also, in my opinion, there has been a distinct lack of provision of professional coaching in the women's team, which is much more of a requirement in the new league structure. This is evidenced by the use of Uncle Tom Cobbly and all as coaches, rather than hiring experienced staff.

I'm disappointed as I think the women's team, which was already starting to attract a regular following, may now fade away to almost permanent amateur status, as the WPL structure is intended.

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Re: OUFC Women

Post by Brahmabull » Tue May 29, 2018 2:23 pm

Looks to me like the club are cutting their cloth accordingly & trying to live within it's means. However, this is clearly a very sensitive subject.

We as a football club, should absolutely have a Women's established first team. The pathway must exist for local girls to have a route into football and the professional game. The club have worked so hard for 5-10 years to make this a reality it really is a shame to see what has happened. My understanding is that the club didn't apply when it had chance, it was prepared to wait and see. If they wanted it, then that 'wait and see' was the wrong decision. At £500,000 a year, it was something the previous ownership didn't really want to fund. The question of ongoing viability has been talked about for sometime.

SmileyMan
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Re: OUFC Women

Post by SmileyMan » Tue May 29, 2018 2:24 pm

OtmoorYellow wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:19 pm
All WSL clubs were given the opportunity to join the new structure before any outside clubs were even able to apply to join, and all clubs that met the requirements of professional standards for the new structure, were guaranteed their place. So no franchising at the expense of anyone.

The issue for OUFC is a lack of willingness to invest in the women's team to maintain those professional standards. And in all honesty, that has been a problem for the women's team throughout its time in WSL2, hence why the club struggled badly against teams who did want to invest and progress.
So if the club decides at some point in the next few years that they want to increase investment in the women's side, will they get an automatic place back in the top divisions? If Man Utd or West Ham decide to revert back to semi-pro, will they lose their places?

Dream on.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: OUFC Women

Post by OtmoorYellow » Tue May 29, 2018 2:31 pm

SmileyMan wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:24 pm
OtmoorYellow wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:19 pm
All WSL clubs were given the opportunity to join the new structure before any outside clubs were even able to apply to join, and all clubs that met the requirements of professional standards for the new structure, were guaranteed their place. So no franchising at the expense of anyone.

The issue for OUFC is a lack of willingness to invest in the women's team to maintain those professional standards. And in all honesty, that has been a problem for the women's team throughout its time in WSL2, hence why the club struggled badly against teams who did want to invest and progress.
So if the club decides at some point in the next few years that they want to increase investment in the women's side, will they get an automatic place back in the top divisions? If Man Utd or West Ham decide to revert back to semi-pro, will they lose their places?

Dream on.
You are putting the cart before the horse.

Presumably you would prefer to see amateur teams playing fully professional teams under a mis-guided interpretation of pyramid structure.

The comparison with the men's game doesn't hold water, as the existing men's game has a full allocation of professional teams and wider structure in place. The women's game does not, nor does it have the minimum standards of the men's game.

For the women's game to progress, it has to become more professional first, or no one will watch it. Then it will be a self fulfilling prophecy of failure, instead of the real potential for success that exists in the US for example.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: OUFC Women

Post by OtmoorYellow » Tue May 29, 2018 2:32 pm

OtmoorYellow wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:31 pm
SmileyMan wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:24 pm
OtmoorYellow wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:19 pm
All WSL clubs were given the opportunity to join the new structure before any outside clubs were even able to apply to join, and all clubs that met the requirements of professional standards for the new structure, were guaranteed their place. So no franchising at the expense of anyone.

The issue for OUFC is a lack of willingness to invest in the women's team to maintain those professional standards. And in all honesty, that has been a problem for the women's team throughout its time in WSL2, hence why the club struggled badly against teams who did want to invest and progress.
So if the club decides at some point in the next few years that they want to increase investment in the women's side, will they get an automatic place back in the top divisions? If Man Utd or West Ham decide to revert back to semi-pro, will they lose their places?

Dream on.
You are putting the cart before the horse.

Presumably you would prefer to see amateur teams playing fully professional teams under a mis-guided interpretation of pyramid structure.

The comparison with the men's game doesn't hold water, as the existing men's game has a full allocation of professional teams and wider structure in place. The women's game does not, nor does it have the minimum standards of the men's game.

For the women's game to progress, it has to become more professional first, or no one will watch it. Without these changes it will be a self fulfilling prophecy of failure, instead of the real potential for success that exists in the US for example.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: OUFC Women

Post by OtmoorYellow » Tue May 29, 2018 2:34 pm

There is something wrong with this forum, as any edited posts are being posted and the original remains as well!

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Re: OUFC Women

Post by SmileyMan » Tue May 29, 2018 2:38 pm

OtmoorYellow wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:32 pm

Presumably you would prefer to see amateur teams playing fully professional teams under a mis-guided interpretation of pyramid structure.
Yes! If those professional teams are good enough to beat the semi-pro teams (there are no 'amateur' teams in the WSL) then they can earn promotion. This is not a novel concept.

If Man Utd and West Ham are good enough and want it enough, then a few seasons earning back to back promotions doesn't seem a big price to ask.

The discussion's pointless, since the deed has been done, but if you are really happy with Premiershit clubs buying our league places out from under us, then it's probably best we agree to disagree, at least on this point.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: OUFC Women

Post by OtmoorYellow » Tue May 29, 2018 2:40 pm

Brahmabull wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:23 pm
Looks to me like the club are cutting their cloth accordingly & trying to live within it's means. However, this is clearly a very sensitive subject.

We as a football club, should absolutely have a Women's established first team. The pathway must exist for local girls to have a route into football and the professional game. The club have worked so hard for 5-10 years to make this a reality it really is a shame to see what has happened. My understanding is that the club didn't apply when it had chance, it was prepared to wait and see. If they wanted it, then that 'wait and see' was the wrong decision. At £500,000 a year, it was something the previous ownership didn't really want to fund. The question of ongoing viability has been talked about for sometime.
Commercial success is the reward for development, progression and investment. You don't get the first without the rest.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: OUFC Women

Post by OtmoorYellow » Tue May 29, 2018 2:55 pm

SmileyMan wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:38 pm
OtmoorYellow wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:32 pm

Presumably you would prefer to see amateur teams playing fully professional teams under a mis-guided interpretation of pyramid structure.
Yes! If those professional teams are good enough to beat the semi-pro teams (there are no 'amateur' teams in the WSL) then they can earn promotion. This is not a novel concept.

If Man Utd and West Ham are good enough and want it enough, then a few seasons earning back to back promotions doesn't seem a big price to ask.

The discussion's pointless, since the deed has been done, but if you are really happy with Premiershit clubs buying our league places out from under us, then it's probably best we agree to disagree, at least on this point.
You are wrong on all counts there and you are allowing a desire to stick to a principle rule when the alternatives are clearly better for progression.

WSL had both full and part time teams.

The point of having a competition, is that there is genuine competition. Otherwise you might just as well crown the same team champions every year.

You provide no solution. If WSL is to expand the number of teams to achieve progression in the game, it is pointless just promoting a load of teams from WPL, who may or may not even want to join WSL. Not only would they be thrashed every week leading to widespread and proper criticism of the game's structure, but it would damage the value of the competition in the eye's of the public and so remove the opportunity for progression.

I imagine you would like half of the existing football league teams to be thrown out on the same grounds, as very similar events took place on the formation of the football league in 1887, and again on the formation of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th divisions.

The women's professional game does not have the structural integrity to insist only on promotion and relegation, nor the number of clubs willing to satisfy the demands of a professional era, that such a simplistic approach would demand.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: OUFC Women

Post by OtmoorYellow » Tue May 29, 2018 2:57 pm

OtmoorYellow wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:55 pm
SmileyMan wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:38 pm
OtmoorYellow wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:32 pm

Presumably you would prefer to see amateur teams playing fully professional teams under a mis-guided interpretation of pyramid structure.
Yes! If those professional teams are good enough to beat the semi-pro teams (there are no 'amateur' teams in the WSL) then they can earn promotion. This is not a novel concept.

If Man Utd and West Ham are good enough and want it enough, then a few seasons earning back to back promotions doesn't seem a big price to ask.

The discussion's pointless, since the deed has been done, but if you are really happy with Premiershit clubs buying our league places out from under us, then it's probably best we agree to disagree, at least on this point.
You are wrong on all counts there and you are allowing a desire to stick to a principle rule when the alternatives are clearly better for progression.

WSL had both full and part time teams. WPL had no full time teams and many with virtually no facilities at all.

The point of having a competition, is that there is genuine competition. Otherwise you might just as well crown the same team champions every year.

You provide no solution. If WSL is to expand the number of teams to achieve progression in the game, it is pointless just promoting a load of teams from WPL, who may or may not even want to join WSL. Not only would they be thrashed every week leading to widespread and proper criticism of the game's structure, but it would damage the value of the competition in the eye's of the public and so remove the opportunity for progression.

I imagine you would like half of the existing football league teams to be thrown out on the same grounds, as very similar events took place on the formation of the football league in 1887, and again on the formation of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th divisions.

The women's professional game does not have the structural integrity to insist only on promotion and relegation, nor the number of clubs willing to satisfy the demands of a professional era, that such a simplistic approach would demand.

Brahmabull
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Re: OUFC Women

Post by Brahmabull » Tue May 29, 2018 3:39 pm

OtmoorYellow wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:40 pm
Brahmabull wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:23 pm
Looks to me like the club are cutting their cloth accordingly & trying to live within it's means. However, this is clearly a very sensitive subject.

We as a football club, should absolutely have a Women's established first team. The pathway must exist for local girls to have a route into football and the professional game. The club have worked so hard for 5-10 years to make this a reality it really is a shame to see what has happened. My understanding is that the club didn't apply when it had chance, it was prepared to wait and see. If they wanted it, then that 'wait and see' was the wrong decision. At £500,000 a year, it was something the previous ownership didn't really want to fund. The question of ongoing viability has been talked about for sometime.
Commercial success is the reward for development, progression and investment. You don't get the first without the rest.
Any you could argue this is the issue and why football clubs go to the wall. OUFC Women is run independently to the men's side, it costs £500,000 to send our girls around the country, Durham, Doncaster, etc.

I have done a lot of research into the WSL and the National Leagues in the past 12 months, plenty of football clubs can't even afford to employ a full time manager and seek 'coaches' who will do it on a voluntary basis. If they haven't got the income, investment and commercial activity, it will struggle to work unless you are an established football club like West Ham United, whose ladies side just finished 7th in the Womens Premier Southern Division.

They can throw £500K to £1m to move away from playing sides like Chichester, Coventry United and Basildon and buy themselves into the top part of the pyramid.

Last time I looked, this football club was seriously loss making.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: OUFC Women

Post by OtmoorYellow » Wed May 30, 2018 2:14 am

Brahmabull wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 3:39 pm
OtmoorYellow wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:40 pm
Brahmabull wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:23 pm
Looks to me like the club are cutting their cloth accordingly & trying to live within it's means. However, this is clearly a very sensitive subject.

We as a football club, should absolutely have a Women's established first team. The pathway must exist for local girls to have a route into football and the professional game. The club have worked so hard for 5-10 years to make this a reality it really is a shame to see what has happened. My understanding is that the club didn't apply when it had chance, it was prepared to wait and see. If they wanted it, then that 'wait and see' was the wrong decision. At £500,000 a year, it was something the previous ownership didn't really want to fund. The question of ongoing viability has been talked about for sometime.
Commercial success is the reward for development, progression and investment. You don't get the first without the rest.
Any you could argue this is the issue and why football clubs go to the wall. OUFC Women is run independently to the men's side, it costs £500,000 to send our girls around the country, Durham, Doncaster, etc.

I have done a lot of research into the WSL and the National Leagues in the past 12 months, plenty of football clubs can't even afford to employ a full time manager and seek 'coaches' who will do it on a voluntary basis. If they haven't got the income, investment and commercial activity, it will struggle to work unless you are an established football club like West Ham United, whose ladies side just finished 7th in the Womens Premier Southern Division.

They can throw £500K to £1m to move away from playing sides like Chichester, Coventry United and Basildon and buy themselves into the top part of the pyramid.

Last time I looked, this football club was seriously loss making.
Chicken meet egg. But this is different to the long established men's game. I too have followed the WSL and WPL story for a couple of years and in particular WSL2 because of OUFC involvement, as well as the England National set up.

When you start out a business, you don't ask customers to give you money up front and then only do the work when they have made you sufficiently profitable. You invest in your business to provide a service, and if you do it right, you make a profit. Maybe not in year one or year two, but in the longer term when you reap the rewards your efforts have contributed to. Its called risk and it is what business owners and entrepreneurs do.

The men's game is different because it is inherently an unfair structure, biased towards so called big clubs. The WSL is way too early in it's journey for those biases to have crept in, especially in WSL2.

As I said much earlier, if Lewes can do it, OUFC with a very wealthy businessman at the helm can do it as well, but Tiger has chosen not to. In my view, this is a huge mistake. Once Sky TV and BT get hold of the rights and bid against each other, the payouts will be significant. Obviously not in the same tier as the men's game, but the huge over-subscription for licenses in WSL2 shows that many clubs see this as a big opportunity.

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