If Kassam had still been around, I doubt if we would have sold more than 500 season tickets this year and we would probably be playing to gates of under 2000 at home.
The club would be inoperable within a year and he would probably have looked to offload it to OxVox or any old uncle Tom Cobbly, just to minimise his losses.
I doubt he would have invested in new players, and most of the old inadequate squad would still be here.
All the evidence shows that he had no interest in running the club and that it was a necessary evil in order to get what he wanted, the land.
Now he's raking it in from the Ozone, hotel and stadium and the football club, and he no longer has the necessary evil irritating him.
The fans should have stood up to him much much earlier. We should have gone through this process of openly criticising him 2 years ago. Maybe then we would still have league status.
He may have been the right appointment at the start, purely because he was the only credible appointment, and for no other reason. Once the club was stable, he then did very little for the club, and even operated in a manner which showed he cared nothing for the club, knowing that one day when a new buyer came in, he would recoup his loan. and his loan was largely of his own making anyway.
We are lucky to be rid of him.
Kassam drove the club into the ground
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GodalmingYellow
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Your first four sentances are nonsense.
If theres one thing he did do was pay off rubbish from previous managers and invest in a new squad every season due to his chopping and changing of managers.
Why don't you stick to TiU with provocative rubbish like that?
If you were so sure of his 'evilness' 2 years ago why didn't you put your concerns to him at one of the many fans forums?
If theres one thing he did do was pay off rubbish from previous managers and invest in a new squad every season due to his chopping and changing of managers.
Why don't you stick to TiU with provocative rubbish like that?
If you were so sure of his 'evilness' 2 years ago why didn't you put your concerns to him at one of the many fans forums?
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GodalmingYellow
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Re:
Care to substantiate your first paragraph?"ty cobb" wrote:Your first four sentances are nonsense.
If theres one thing he did do was pay off rubbish from previous managers and invest in a new squad every season due to his chopping and changing of managers.
Why don't you stick to TiU with provocative rubbish like that?
If you were so sure of his 'evilness' 2 years ago why didn't you put your concerns to him at one of the many fans forums?
It isn't nonsense and all the evidence points to what I posted.
Rather than telling me what to do Ty, why don't you stick to debate or don't bother responding. And its hardly as if you're never seen on TiU, except when you want to defend Kassam and attack Merry of course. You're not Nilu in disguise are you?
I wasn't sure of his "evilness" (your words not mine) 2 years ago. Its a comment with the benefit of hindsight. I had concerns, which is one of the reasons I re-joined the OV committee,a nd the points were put to Kassam in various correspondence and then more open public statements. But it was too little too late.
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GodalmingYellow
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Re:
You are quite right DLT, we will never know. But its an interesting debate, possibly with lessons to learn if similar circumstances arise with the new crowd."DLT" wrote:Off course we could have had an absentee Chairman, Bill and Bren running the show, Patto and Magilton in charge of the team and still be inthe football league.
We will never know will we.
We also said that season ticket sales would plummet last year and in fact they sold almost an identical amount.
Personally, I think if Kassam had remained in charge, the club would have spiralled out of control, probably irrecoverably. He did too much damage in the later years and the fans had turned against him in large droves. Crowds would have been miserable at best.
Bill and Bren, no doubt very well intentioned and certainly it would be hard to argue that particularly Brendan didn't have the interests of the club at heart. Whether they had the acumen to do the job is another matter entirely.
I like Patto, and I wish he had been drafted into the current set up at first team level. First time he dabbled temporarily, he came across as naive. Second time around, he came across as confident and knowing what he was doing and having a plan to achieve it. I don't see any reason to believe he would have prevented relegation though, not even the results he achieved. And with much reduced crowds and a high wage bill to get rid of, I think he would have struggled in the conference. The change at the top made getting rid of poor players much easier.
We did say last year that season tickets would fall. And indeed they did. The previous season was near 3,000 tickets. Last year 2,300. (Before I get jumped on, I think those figures are right, but if they are wrong no doubt someone will correct me). that they did not fall further, was because we remained in the Football League. With a drop to the Conference and the hatred of Kassam, I doubt more than 500 would have been sold.
'If Kassam had still been around, I doubt if we would have sold more than 500 season tickets this year and we would probably be playing to gates of under 2000 at home.
If Kassam had been here still I believe Patto would be manager, Magilton as assistant and we would be in the football league and feeling optimisitc with a good management pair and the prospect of lots of local derbys. If we had have gone down then I agree crowds would have dropped but only 500 season tickets sold? I don't agree with this I think that the Oxford fans left were the loyal ones who would support the team no matter who was in charge.
'The club would be inoperable within a year and he would probably have looked to offload it to OxVox or any old uncle Tom Cobbly, just to minimise his losses.'
It would be no more inoperable then it was when he left. If the crowds went down the budget would do - thats what Kassam does he sticks to a budget which is dependent on the money coming in.
'I doubt he would have invested in new players, and most of the old inadequate squad would still be here.'
Already covered that one.
'All the evidence shows that he had no interest in running the club and that it was a necessary evil in order to get what he wanted, the land.'
For some one who didn't care he turned up to a fair amount of games and never shirked from facing the fans or trying to change it on a regular basis. Mind you if I had been supporting Oxford over the last 7 years I would also start to wonder that the point was.
And to say Patto was 'naive' in his first spell in charge - we won our first away game for ages with him in charge whats naive about that!!
If Kassam had been here still I believe Patto would be manager, Magilton as assistant and we would be in the football league and feeling optimisitc with a good management pair and the prospect of lots of local derbys. If we had have gone down then I agree crowds would have dropped but only 500 season tickets sold? I don't agree with this I think that the Oxford fans left were the loyal ones who would support the team no matter who was in charge.
'The club would be inoperable within a year and he would probably have looked to offload it to OxVox or any old uncle Tom Cobbly, just to minimise his losses.'
It would be no more inoperable then it was when he left. If the crowds went down the budget would do - thats what Kassam does he sticks to a budget which is dependent on the money coming in.
'I doubt he would have invested in new players, and most of the old inadequate squad would still be here.'
Already covered that one.
'All the evidence shows that he had no interest in running the club and that it was a necessary evil in order to get what he wanted, the land.'
For some one who didn't care he turned up to a fair amount of games and never shirked from facing the fans or trying to change it on a regular basis. Mind you if I had been supporting Oxford over the last 7 years I would also start to wonder that the point was.
And to say Patto was 'naive' in his first spell in charge - we won our first away game for ages with him in charge whats naive about that!!
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GodalmingYellow
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Re:
"If Kassam had been here still I believe Patto would be manager"
Agreed.
"Magilton as assistant"
Not a chance.
"and we would be in the football league"
Not a chance.
" and feeling optimisitc with a good management pair and the prospect of lots of local derbys."
Haha.
"If we had have gone down then I agree crowds would have dropped but only 500 season tickets sold? I don't agree with this I think that the Oxford fans left were the loyal ones who would support the team no matter who was in charge."
Pretty much every one I knew and came into contact with was saying they would not renew (with the exception of literally a handful like you and me). Under Kassam, our gates had plummeted to their lowest ever for League matches and were likely to fall even further.
"It would be no more inoperable then it was when he left. If the crowds went down the budget would do - thats what Kassam does he sticks to a budget which is dependent on the money coming in."
Without crowds, there would be no budget and playing standards would fall further. Crowds would drop further. In my view, we would have been playing to home gates of less than 2,000. That would not even provide a budget for staff and players, let alone running costs and rent. With gates that low, it would have been an impossible equation financially. Kassam would then have cut the reserve and youth teams as he had previously threatened. Backroom staff would have been cut down to bare bones. Prices hiked further. Kassam's way of running a football club doesn't work because he had little or no interest in making it owrk. He had already got his land deal.
"For some one who didn't care he turned up to a fair amount of games and never shirked from facing the fans or trying to change it on a regular basis."
Not surprising he turned up, he loved the glamour and attention and hospitality of being a club Chairman. and he was so dictatorial in his approach to ensure not a penny was spent that he didn't have to, that was the one who had to write all the cheques. He spent virtually no time at the club during the week, so he had to turn up on a Saturday to sign cheques and documents. Nearer the end, he spent almost all his time in Monaco, and as for not shirking the fans, well I didn't see him at many games when Bill and Bren had been put in charge, and I sit right next to the Directors Box.
"And to say Patto was 'naive' in his first spell in charge - we won our first away game for ages with him in charge whats naive about that!!"
If you base your opinion on someone in football on the basis of one game, then more fool you. As it happens, I was thinking more in terms of his approach to the job than his football brain.
Agreed.
"Magilton as assistant"
Not a chance.
"and we would be in the football league"
Not a chance.
" and feeling optimisitc with a good management pair and the prospect of lots of local derbys."
Haha.
"If we had have gone down then I agree crowds would have dropped but only 500 season tickets sold? I don't agree with this I think that the Oxford fans left were the loyal ones who would support the team no matter who was in charge."
Pretty much every one I knew and came into contact with was saying they would not renew (with the exception of literally a handful like you and me). Under Kassam, our gates had plummeted to their lowest ever for League matches and were likely to fall even further.
"It would be no more inoperable then it was when he left. If the crowds went down the budget would do - thats what Kassam does he sticks to a budget which is dependent on the money coming in."
Without crowds, there would be no budget and playing standards would fall further. Crowds would drop further. In my view, we would have been playing to home gates of less than 2,000. That would not even provide a budget for staff and players, let alone running costs and rent. With gates that low, it would have been an impossible equation financially. Kassam would then have cut the reserve and youth teams as he had previously threatened. Backroom staff would have been cut down to bare bones. Prices hiked further. Kassam's way of running a football club doesn't work because he had little or no interest in making it owrk. He had already got his land deal.
"For some one who didn't care he turned up to a fair amount of games and never shirked from facing the fans or trying to change it on a regular basis."
Not surprising he turned up, he loved the glamour and attention and hospitality of being a club Chairman. and he was so dictatorial in his approach to ensure not a penny was spent that he didn't have to, that was the one who had to write all the cheques. He spent virtually no time at the club during the week, so he had to turn up on a Saturday to sign cheques and documents. Nearer the end, he spent almost all his time in Monaco, and as for not shirking the fans, well I didn't see him at many games when Bill and Bren had been put in charge, and I sit right next to the Directors Box.
"And to say Patto was 'naive' in his first spell in charge - we won our first away game for ages with him in charge whats naive about that!!"
If you base your opinion on someone in football on the basis of one game, then more fool you. As it happens, I was thinking more in terms of his approach to the job than his football brain.
A number of discussion points raised on here, so for what it is worth:
Staying up -
In the end it all came down to just 3 points. Personally, I feel that our chances of clawing those extra few points would have been greater by sticking with Patto than bringing in Smith.
Patto had been around all season and was fully aware of the situation we were in. He was very well respected by all at the club, particularly the players, and appeared to have generated some momentum and spirit on the pitch.
When Smith came in he spent a couple of weeks finding out about hte players, changing things around, adding new players, etc, which unfortunately was a couple of weeks we couldn't spare at that stage of the season.
To me it mirrors the situation when Atkins left, when instead of leaving Oldfield to steer us across the line into the playoffs, Rix appeared, changed everything around and dragged us down into mid-table.
Whether either Patto or Oldfield would have been the right choice long term is difficult to tell, but in both cases I think it was clear that they were the better choice for the short-term, which was the most important thing at the time.
His "evilness" -
The Kassam era falls basically into two halves:- putting aside the possibility that there might have been another "saviour" ready to step in, (as we will never know), it was FK that took on a club about to fold and "saved" it.
Whether we loved him or not (or any ulterior or stated motives that he had), he managed to clear the debts, get us into the new stadium and introduce financial stability. He had also overcame some pretty (and petty) difficult obstacles to get us there and had been let down by more than one person on the football side of things too (Wright, Kinnear/Kemp).
Things were not great behind the scenes, we all know that, but while all this was going on and indeed while Atkins looked to be dragging us back up the league (albeit in the dullest of manners) most people reluctantly tolerated these things.
However, once Atkins went and Rix had convinced the 2nd of his three rich non-footballing Chairmen to finance his inadequacies, things really did begin to unravel and FK proved himself incapable of making the right decisions to arrest the demise. Ironically, it was perhaps only in his dying throes that he actually made his best appointments in Patto, Bill & Bren.
Stood up to him 2 years ago ?
As Terry acknowledges, hindsight does suggest that this was the moment to act. However, there is a problem in that we cannot know what impact it would have had. Would FK have been so keen to get out while the league position was more secure and, more to the point, who was out there ready to step in and take over???
Was Merry ready (and was Smith available), were the Argentinians ever serious in their intentions or were there other consortiums hovering?
I guess, with their previous connections to the club, we can be fairly certain that the intentions of Smith & Merry are honourable, but the same could not be assumed about other suitors (particularly Diaz & Co)*
(* Better the devil you know/Frying pan and fires/insert your own proverb here)
Investing in players -
Here I definately share ty's view that, with the odd closed season exception, FK has never shirked on financing the demands of his managers or paying off the mistakes of their predecessors.
This I think typifies much of his era, in that his failing came in making the right managerial appointments and their ability to spend what they were given wisely rather than his funding of those managers that he did appoint.
Timing -
The problem with the takeover is not the people involved, but the timing of it, which to my mind came at the worst possible time.
A few months, or even weeks, earlier and Smith would have had time to assess the squad and ease in those changes deemed necessary rather than signing whoever he could, then seeing how he could fit them in.
Leaving it to the end of the season would have avoided rocking the boat just when everyone needed to be pulling together.
I think nearly everyone is optimistic to some degree about the new regime, as I say, their previous connections with the club bode well for their intentions, even though we will have to wait to see whether they can put their promises into action. The Training Ground and funding for the Youth Setup are good early signs however, delays over the Stadium purchase not so good.
There are questions that still need to be asked and certain things clarified, if only to set expectations over when we can expect things to happen (eg buying the stadium, etc).
I have personal reservations over whether having Smith as manager is advisable long term (imagine the reaction if Kassam had bought in a man who had not managed at this level for 20 years and at any level for 5), but as long as he and everyone else concerned appreciate what is required next season, then I'm happy to give him the benefit for now. If our biggest crisis in the next couple of seasons is when he should move upstairs I'll take that.
Staying up -
In the end it all came down to just 3 points. Personally, I feel that our chances of clawing those extra few points would have been greater by sticking with Patto than bringing in Smith.
Patto had been around all season and was fully aware of the situation we were in. He was very well respected by all at the club, particularly the players, and appeared to have generated some momentum and spirit on the pitch.
When Smith came in he spent a couple of weeks finding out about hte players, changing things around, adding new players, etc, which unfortunately was a couple of weeks we couldn't spare at that stage of the season.
To me it mirrors the situation when Atkins left, when instead of leaving Oldfield to steer us across the line into the playoffs, Rix appeared, changed everything around and dragged us down into mid-table.
Whether either Patto or Oldfield would have been the right choice long term is difficult to tell, but in both cases I think it was clear that they were the better choice for the short-term, which was the most important thing at the time.
His "evilness" -
The Kassam era falls basically into two halves:- putting aside the possibility that there might have been another "saviour" ready to step in, (as we will never know), it was FK that took on a club about to fold and "saved" it.
Whether we loved him or not (or any ulterior or stated motives that he had), he managed to clear the debts, get us into the new stadium and introduce financial stability. He had also overcame some pretty (and petty) difficult obstacles to get us there and had been let down by more than one person on the football side of things too (Wright, Kinnear/Kemp).
Things were not great behind the scenes, we all know that, but while all this was going on and indeed while Atkins looked to be dragging us back up the league (albeit in the dullest of manners) most people reluctantly tolerated these things.
However, once Atkins went and Rix had convinced the 2nd of his three rich non-footballing Chairmen to finance his inadequacies, things really did begin to unravel and FK proved himself incapable of making the right decisions to arrest the demise. Ironically, it was perhaps only in his dying throes that he actually made his best appointments in Patto, Bill & Bren.
Stood up to him 2 years ago ?
As Terry acknowledges, hindsight does suggest that this was the moment to act. However, there is a problem in that we cannot know what impact it would have had. Would FK have been so keen to get out while the league position was more secure and, more to the point, who was out there ready to step in and take over???
Was Merry ready (and was Smith available), were the Argentinians ever serious in their intentions or were there other consortiums hovering?
I guess, with their previous connections to the club, we can be fairly certain that the intentions of Smith & Merry are honourable, but the same could not be assumed about other suitors (particularly Diaz & Co)*
(* Better the devil you know/Frying pan and fires/insert your own proverb here)
Investing in players -
Here I definately share ty's view that, with the odd closed season exception, FK has never shirked on financing the demands of his managers or paying off the mistakes of their predecessors.
This I think typifies much of his era, in that his failing came in making the right managerial appointments and their ability to spend what they were given wisely rather than his funding of those managers that he did appoint.
Timing -
The problem with the takeover is not the people involved, but the timing of it, which to my mind came at the worst possible time.
A few months, or even weeks, earlier and Smith would have had time to assess the squad and ease in those changes deemed necessary rather than signing whoever he could, then seeing how he could fit them in.
Leaving it to the end of the season would have avoided rocking the boat just when everyone needed to be pulling together.
I think nearly everyone is optimistic to some degree about the new regime, as I say, their previous connections with the club bode well for their intentions, even though we will have to wait to see whether they can put their promises into action. The Training Ground and funding for the Youth Setup are good early signs however, delays over the Stadium purchase not so good.
There are questions that still need to be asked and certain things clarified, if only to set expectations over when we can expect things to happen (eg buying the stadium, etc).
I have personal reservations over whether having Smith as manager is advisable long term (imagine the reaction if Kassam had bought in a man who had not managed at this level for 20 years and at any level for 5), but as long as he and everyone else concerned appreciate what is required next season, then I'm happy to give him the benefit for now. If our biggest crisis in the next couple of seasons is when he should move upstairs I'll take that.
Last edited by Mooro on Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Can't disagree with any of that other than the way it ends but that might be the discussion database doing the trimming.
One question that is left hanging is what was Kassam doing when he appointed Bill & Bren. Did he think the deal with Merry was dead and therefore he needed to act to try and keep the club up or was it purely a negotiating ploy to get Merry back to the table. I don't suppose we'll ever know.
If it was the former then as you suggest it was probably the right thing to do. If it was the latter then it was an extremely underhand thing to do that would only cause instability just at the time when stability was required.
One question that is left hanging is what was Kassam doing when he appointed Bill & Bren. Did he think the deal with Merry was dead and therefore he needed to act to try and keep the club up or was it purely a negotiating ploy to get Merry back to the table. I don't suppose we'll ever know.
If it was the former then as you suggest it was probably the right thing to do. If it was the latter then it was an extremely underhand thing to do that would only cause instability just at the time when stability was required.
Re:
It is, as I've just gone back in to replace the missing text and it has only accepted some of the revised message too."Mally" wrote:Can't disagree with any of that other than the way it ends but that might be the discussion database doing the trimming.
.
All I was going to say was that the timing was the worst possible, weeks earlier and SMith had time to make decisions, or end of the season so that we had a steady ship with Patto at the helm to steer ourselves clear.
I'd like a bit of clarity on a few things (particularly the finances of whoever is backing the whole project), just so realistic expectations about when things will happen can be set and unrest doesnt settle in when the promised land does not appear straight away, but generally I'm looking forwards to this latest new era.
I'm personally uneasy about Smith's abilities as manager after so long out of the role, but as long as he and everyone else does not underestimate the task that faces us next season, then all being well, we'll soon be on an upwards curve as a club once more.
I believe that the signing of the cinema deal with Vue was a major turning point in Kassam's perspective of needing to be around!
Only then did the financial return on his investment become assured.
He now has his three key tennants signed up on long term leases, the health club will probably be next. Then he will surely try and fill out the other units, chinese is coming, nightclub would make sense now his casino dream is over.
Only then did the financial return on his investment become assured.
He now has his three key tennants signed up on long term leases, the health club will probably be next. Then he will surely try and fill out the other units, chinese is coming, nightclub would make sense now his casino dream is over.
Nothing wrong in starting up a debate, Terry, but just posting up this kind of inaccurate and inflammatory stuff just clutters up our board. And yes, I do realise that it’s al least partly the fault of others in biting on your posting, so stop it, you other guys.
And before you go off on one Mr. T, it’s taken me 20 minutes just to work out what’s happened today (as I was surprised to see so many postings) and the answer was err, nothing, unless I’ve missed something amongst this day long spat you’ve been having with lots of the regular of this forum.
Then I go and look on MemorOx, and err, dunno - but ‘busy’ would not be a word I’d use to describe it, so why not raise what are clearly very personal issues to you on there instead, eh?
/
Fantastic news on season ticket sales so far, as they are 244% up on last year at this point in time, 266% up on the year before, and 201% up from the year before that.
It’s also possible that we WILL beat last years total sales, but it’s still early days yet I guess.
What would help even more though would be to get some new players on board before the July 7th discount deadline, as it is getting a tad worrying that other clubs are snapping them up while Jim Smith stays “constantly on the phone
And before you go off on one Mr. T, it’s taken me 20 minutes just to work out what’s happened today (as I was surprised to see so many postings) and the answer was err, nothing, unless I’ve missed something amongst this day long spat you’ve been having with lots of the regular of this forum.
Then I go and look on MemorOx, and err, dunno - but ‘busy’ would not be a word I’d use to describe it, so why not raise what are clearly very personal issues to you on there instead, eh?
/
Fantastic news on season ticket sales so far, as they are 244% up on last year at this point in time, 266% up on the year before, and 201% up from the year before that.
It’s also possible that we WILL beat last years total sales, but it’s still early days yet I guess.
What would help even more though would be to get some new players on board before the July 7th discount deadline, as it is getting a tad worrying that other clubs are snapping them up while Jim Smith stays “constantly on the phone
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GodalmingYellow
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Re:
[quote="Snake"]Nothing wrong in starting up a debate, Terry, but just posting up this kind of inaccurate and inflammatory stuff just clutters up our board. And yes, I do realise that it’s al least partly the fault of others in biting on your posting, so stop it, you other guys.
And before you go off on one Mr. T, it’s taken me 20 minutes just to work out what’s happened today (as I was surprised to see so many postings) and the answer was err, nothing, unless I’ve missed something amongst this day long spat you’ve been having with lots of the regular of this forum.
Then I go and look on MemorOx, and err, dunno - but ‘busy’ would not be a word I’d use to describe it, so why not raise what are clearly very personal issues to you on there instead, eh?
/
Fantastic news on season ticket sales so far, as they are 244% up on last year at this point in time, 266% up on the year before, and 201% up from the year before that.
It’s also possible that we WILL beat last years total sales, but it’s still early days yet I guess.
What would help even more though would be to get some new players on board before the July 7th discount deadline, as it is getting a tad worrying that other clubs are snapping them up while Jim Smith stays “constantly on the phone
And before you go off on one Mr. T, it’s taken me 20 minutes just to work out what’s happened today (as I was surprised to see so many postings) and the answer was err, nothing, unless I’ve missed something amongst this day long spat you’ve been having with lots of the regular of this forum.
Then I go and look on MemorOx, and err, dunno - but ‘busy’ would not be a word I’d use to describe it, so why not raise what are clearly very personal issues to you on there instead, eh?
/
Fantastic news on season ticket sales so far, as they are 244% up on last year at this point in time, 266% up on the year before, and 201% up from the year before that.
It’s also possible that we WILL beat last years total sales, but it’s still early days yet I guess.
What would help even more though would be to get some new players on board before the July 7th discount deadline, as it is getting a tad worrying that other clubs are snapping them up while Jim Smith stays “constantly on the phone
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GodalmingYellow
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Re:
Now you know I don't delete posts that I don't agree with. That's a myth created by the slighted clique."Snake" wrote:"When you say 'our' board, I almost feel excluded."
No one posts as much as you do on here (and you do have your OWN board where you delete postings you don't like or agree with) so think a bit about it instead and come back in the morning with a different head on, would be my advice.
And you should know by now that I only take advice from those who treat others as they would wish to be treated themselves, respect others, and have an even handed approach. As I said above, I have no care for the personal judgemental opinions of those who act otherwise.
Is there some unwritten rule about where I post then? If you don't like it you know what you can do.