Consistency

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GodalmingYellow
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Re: Consistency

Post by GodalmingYellow »

Jimski wrote:Any predictions on where we'd be now if the fans had instead formed a phoenix club at the time Kassam stepped in? I'm starting to wonder if we might be better off. I look at AFC Wimbledon (and even FC United) and think "what if?"

(The reason I mention this is it shouldn't be disregarded if/when the whole thing explodes again.)
Probably in a mess, or no longer in existence, as the whole Supporters Trust support network and structures weren't in place then.

Next time...
Jimski
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Re: Consistency

Post by Jimski »

That's a decent point - it was a couple of years later that Wimbledon showed the way, wasn't it? Even so, there are enough good examples by now that IF (that's "IF", Mr Pollard) we get relegated and it all goes financially tits up, I think the time and effort should be expended on starting a new club rather than finding a rich benefactor.
tomoufc
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Re: Consistency

Post by tomoufc »

It would be interesting to know whether OxVox have discussed the what ifs of relegation. In its current form I don't think it'd be equipped to lead a a rising phoenix. But then things change quicker than you'd imagine when a proper crisis hits. What I'm not enjoying is OxVox's continued silence over the woeful performance on the field and the fact that we're so far from owning the stadium the club seldom mention it anymore. To lead a supporters group into establishing a new club you really need some backbone.
&quotI've been a slave to football. It follows you home, it follows you everywhere, and eats into your family life. But every working man misses out on some things because of his job. &quot
tomoufc
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Re: Consistency

Post by tomoufc »

Jimski wrote:That's a decent point - it was a couple of years later that Wimbledon showed the way, wasn't it? Even so, there are enough good examples by now that IF (that's "IF", Mr Pollard) we get relegated and it all goes financially tits up, I think the time and effort should be expended on starting a new club rather than finding a rich benefactor.
Yeah I agree - all our creditors would lose their money - ha! Perhaps they should have invested it in the first place, rather than place a soft loan. The stadium rental agreement with Kassam no longer exists because the club no longer officially exists. Although if Kassam wishes to persue Eales for the rest of the money that's up to him. AFC Oxford come to a much much lower rental agreement with Kassam, befitting a club at step 7 or 8 in the pyramid. Here's the worst bit for me - what if Kassam demanded too much rent? We'd have to have a back-up plan to use as leverage. That'd probably mean playing at Northampton or Wycombe for a couple of seasonsas there isn't a stadium large enough in Oxfordshire.
&quotI've been a slave to football. It follows you home, it follows you everywhere, and eats into your family life. But every working man misses out on some things because of his job. &quot
ty cobb
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Re: Consistency

Post by ty cobb »

I don't understand all this talk of a Phoenix club. I had quite enough of watching Oxford in division 5 let alone below that. This is our club, the one with the history and we should be doing we can to ensure we survive and prosper.

I've had enough of us being used as a bit player in property deal or as a rich mans play thing. Why can't we take a stake in the club, or take it over as other fans have done with their clubs. Wombles had to start again because their club was taken away from them, moved and rebranded. Hopefully OxVox have plans in place to know what route to take when Eales decides Birmingham is a much better bet (and hopefully taking Ashton and MA with him) and a fans group can step in.
tomoufc
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Re: Consistency

Post by tomoufc »

ty cobb wrote:I don't understand all this talk of a Phoenix club. I had quite enough of watching Oxford in division 5 let alone below that. This is our club, the one with the history and we should be doing we can to ensure we survive and prosper.

I've had enough of us being used as a bit player in property deal or as a rich mans play thing. Why can't we take a stake in the club, or take it over as other fans have done with their clubs. Wombles had to start again because their club was taken away from them, moved and rebranded. Hopefully OxVox have plans in place to know what route to take when Eales decides Birmingham is a much better bet (and hopefully taking Ashton and MA with him) and a fans group can step in.
Good shout Ty - pheonix is not the only possibility - look at Pompey. Although we'd still have the problem of tens of millions of pounds of debt to former owners, and an unsustainable rent.
&quotI've been a slave to football. It follows you home, it follows you everywhere, and eats into your family life. But every working man misses out on some things because of his job. &quot
tomoufc
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Re: Consistency

Post by tomoufc »

Also is this really how a supporters group should work - (unofficially?) backing a takeover without the knowledge of its membership last year, and making secret contingency plans now? The point is - if you're going to run a supporters group or a fan club everything must be open and democratically accountable. 1 fan, 1 vote, not a select group of decision makers. On that point - OxVox could really do with some people stepping-up to take part in their elections, if they're still to come.
&quotI've been a slave to football. It follows you home, it follows you everywhere, and eats into your family life. But every working man misses out on some things because of his job. &quot
Matt D
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Re: Consistency

Post by Matt D »

tomoufc wrote:Also is this really how a supporters group should work - (unofficially?) backing a takeover without the knowledge of its membership last year, and making secret contingency plans now? The point is - if you're going to run a supporters group or a fan club everything must be open and democratically accountable. 1 fan, 1 vote, not a select group of decision makers. On that point - OxVox could really do with some people stepping-up to take part in their elections, if they're still to come.
disagree with your first point, agree with your second.

the trust is open and accountable. the AGM's in a few weeks, everyone sees a report on what's been done, the accounts, and will have the opportunity to ask questions, put forward opinions and suggestions, and the plan is for that to be followed up with another member survey on trust priorities for those that can't be there. we've just been through a month where any member can put themselves forward for the committee.

but as with our national democracy, it's a representative democracy, and so it needs people to take part by putting themselves forward as representatives for it to work like that.

i'm stepping down from the committee after the next AGM, but here are some of the things i've learnt from my time working on it:

1. lots of people have views on what oxvox should or shouldn't do, what's wrong with it, and how to change that, but of those people there aren't that many who are willing to get involved to make that happen (in descending order of willingness: to join, vote in surveys, and even fewer willing to give up time to work on the committee).

2. i put myself forward to the committee because i thought (and think) a supporters' trust is vital to making a modern football club a club, and so i felt if that's what i believe, i needed to be willing to give up some of my time into it. we don't currently have enough people willing (or able, obviously in some cases) to do that.

3. that means that the work of running the trust falls on largely the same few people. the implications of a committee that's below numbers are several:

a) with not enough candidates to make an election, if members don't like the committee's direction, they feel they have no choice in that and complain that it is not democratic.
b) with a below capacity committee, the work of simply administering the trust takes up the majority of the committee's time, and there's little capacity to do much else. people query what the trust is achieving and what the point of it is.
c) committee members get fed up of dealing with that work in their spare time while having people telling them there's no point to what they're doing, or that they are failing, as they're not achieving anything.
d) they leave and the problem is exacerbated.
e) return to point a) and repeat.

4. if a higher proportion of members were willing to put themselves forward for just one term, i think a lot of those problems go away. the committee is refreshed with different views on a regular basis, members have a more direct input both as committee members and committee elections, more gets done, and the work becomes perhaps - dare i say it - fun?..

particularly ahead of the last two AGMs i've extended the period for people to put themselves forward as nominees, encouraged people to put themselves forward by offering a guide as to what's involved, and offered to speak to anyone who wants to talk it through in detail. that's had some effect on who's come forward, but not enough to change the problems i've outlined above.

i feel like a cracked record, but oxvox is what oxford supporters make of it. the harsher formulation of this that i've got to over the last seven years is this: a club's supporters get the supporters' trust they deserve.
Brahma Bull
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Re: Consistency

Post by Brahma Bull »

tomoufc wrote:Also is this really how a supporters group should work - (unofficially?) backing a takeover without the knowledge of its membership last year, and making secret contingency plans now? The point is - if you're going to run a supporters group or a fan club everything must be open and democratically accountable. 1 fan, 1 vote, not a select group of decision makers. On that point - OxVox could really do with some people stepping-up to take part in their elections, if they're still to come.
Perhaps, with respect, you'd like to point out anywhere officially or unofficially, where the Supporters Trust backed anyone? I am surprised with your recent OxVox comments Tom and as current Vice-Chairman of the Trust, I can categorically state that other than calling on the then owner to break his silence and calling on all interested parties to be transparent, that the Trust did not back anyone. Some statement for you to make.
Brahma Bull
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Re: Consistency

Post by Brahma Bull »

tomoufc wrote:It would be interesting to know whether OxVox have discussed the what ifs of relegation. In its current form I don't think it'd be equipped to lead a a rising phoenix. But then things change quicker than you'd imagine when a proper crisis hits. What I'm not enjoying is OxVox's continued silence over the woeful performance on the field and the fact that we're so far from owning the stadium the club seldom mention it anymore. To lead a supporters group into establishing a new club you really need some backbone.
You'll see and be glad when our committee meeting notes from last week appear as it was/is a discussion point. You don't need to go making public statement after public statement about how 'great' we are doing. I think, again with respect, the club have acknowledged the situation in the lead-up to the game and since Accrington and a super reaction it got from the fans who have in the main, decided to back the team and not the personalities.
Kernow Yellow
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Re: Consistency

Post by Kernow Yellow »

I do sometimes wonder whether the perennial OxVox bashers (and there are plenty on this forum) stop to think that they are basically slagging off fellow fans who have given up substantial amounts of their own time to try and do something positive. Matt D paints a bleak picture of the realities of running a Trust with little but carping from the outside, which is a great shame. As an OxVox member who is not in a position to get involved more personally, I'd like to put on record my appreciation of his and the rest of the Committee's efforts over the years.

To some extent I think fans' groups can't win unless there's a real crisis to rally behind - keep functioning quietly and they're accused of lacking influence and purpose; ask too many questions or make critical statements and they're accused of being negative and unhelpful; develop a close working relationship with the club and they're accused of being self-aggrandising and on the wrong side of the debate. It's a thankless task when there isn't a FOUL-like situation to deal with.

Edit - this isn't a response to any particular posts on this thread (apart from Matt's)- just some general observations
GodalmingYellow
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Re: Consistency

Post by GodalmingYellow »

Kernow Yellow wrote:I do sometimes wonder whether the perennial OxVox bashers (and there are plenty on this forum) stop to think that they are basically slagging off fellow fans who have given up substantial amounts of their own time to try and do something positive. Matt D paints a bleak picture of the realities of running a Trust with little but carping from the outside, which is a great shame. As an OxVox member who is not in a position to get involved more personally, I'd like to put on record my appreciation of his and the rest of the Committee's efforts over the years.

To some extent I think fans' groups can't win unless there's a real crisis to rally behind - keep functioning quietly and they're accused of lacking influence and purpose; ask too many questions or make critical statements and they're accused of being negative and unhelpful; develop a close working relationship with the club and they're accused of being self-aggrandising and on the wrong side of the debate. It's a thankless task when there isn't a FOUL-like situation to deal with.

Edit - this isn't a response to any particular posts on this thread (apart from Matt's)- just some general observations
Ever was it thus KY.

The OxVox committee can't be above criticism though. And part of democracy is not just recognising effort for the common good, but also recognising differing views.
Brahma Bull
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Re: Consistency

Post by Brahma Bull »

What's the criticism then GY? (I like understanding others views and having a sensible debate) I have addressed the comment about the committee 'backing a bid' which is completely untrue. OxVox have never had a remit to go chasing a manager out of the club either (even if may have done so before) because you have so many different views.

OxVox have been questioning the club and asking for acknowledgement about the seriousness of its position for the past six weeks - see our OUFC meeting notes from Mid January - this past week the club have come out and addressed it. Daryl Eales is putting alot of his money into this and I feel, he should be seeing a better return. So there hasn't been any continued silence over woeful performances as those very notes make reference too. Those notes are in the public domain.

We have also discussed the stadium again. Daryl Eales has gone on record and said it is one of his main priorities in the first half of 2015. He is having to learn and speak with all the main key stakeholders and that is not just Firoz. OxVox were given a remit to help with the Stadium following last years AGM and it has helped formulate a discussion about Water Eaton. It's now up to the club to take it forward.

So with all that in mind, especially the stadium hard work and meetings the Trust have had in the past 12 months (which I might add started after the Trust got the RTB on the stadium), forgive me if I get offended at the 'lack of backbone' comment from a member of the Trust.

FWIW, I won't be an officer of the Trust moving forward so that will please some people :P
tomoufc
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Re: Consistency

Post by tomoufc »

Sorry for any offence caused BB - not the intention. Some of the things I've said have been based on impressions rather than irrefutable facts. So there you go - perhaps OV didn't back Charlie's bid in an official capacity. Mind you I seem to remember someone from OV suggest there had been some background discussions or whatever the phrase was that was used. I'm not prepared to trawl through yellows forum to find it to provide evidence, as if this is some kind of trial. The best I can do is withdraw my comments and reserve judgement for the time being.

Of course I should be able to make my feelings known however much you might disagree with them, but I never wished to imply that you or anyone else weren't hard working or up to the task. In understand that it's difficult not to take criticisms personally.

I reiterate that without people standing for the committee there's a huge problem facing us.
&quotI've been a slave to football. It follows you home, it follows you everywhere, and eats into your family life. But every working man misses out on some things because of his job. &quot
tomoufc
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Re: Consistency

Post by tomoufc »

Maybe it's better just to say- I think the trust should be more critical of the current ownership and should be exploring the possibility of fan ownership. The committee says 'we disagree and in any case there's clearly not a consensus among the fan base for either position'. I say fine, you are the elected committee and have every right to take that judgement. We can agree to disagree. In the meantime I'll maintain my position while supporting the trust in general.
&quotI've been a slave to football. It follows you home, it follows you everywhere, and eats into your family life. But every working man misses out on some things because of his job. &quot
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