Does IL have a clue?

[Snake]

For my money, we are a decent Division 4 side who might, just might, get to mid-table in Division 3 with a fair wind. I would love to see us go higher - but I fear that THAT would be "over-achieving".

Doncaster, Yeovil, Bournemouth, Swansea, Wigan, Brighton, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Cardiff, Orient, Peterborough, Hull or Fulham supporters could have made exactly that kind of statement in the last decade but where are they now? It's not so long ago we competed on the same terms/leagues as them.

[GodalmingYellow]

As far as I am concerned, IL handled the Wilder period entirely properly.

The post Wilder period has been handled very poorly though.

There was clearly no plan B if Wilder left. Going off to Oz was borderline criminal when we were in a recruitment process. The whole thing to get a new manager has taken far far too long and has almost certainly cost us an automatic promotion place and may yet cost us a play off place. It isn't good enough, it really isn't.

Sorry, but the whole long term thing doesn't wash. Not whilst we have (had) a good opportunity for automatic promotion.

This will go down as one of the poor periods of the Lenagan era, along with the appointment of the sockless wonder.

[Dr Bob]

For my money, we are a decent Division 4 side who might, just might, get to mid-table in Division 3 with a fair wind. I would love to see us go higher - but I fear that THAT would be "over-achieving".

Doncaster, Yeovil, Bournemouth, Swansea, Wigan, Brighton, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Cardiff, Orient, Peterborough, Hull or Fulham supporters could have made exactly that kind of statement in the last decade but where are they now? It's not so long ago we competed on the same terms/leagues as them.

An interesting list of clubs. Not sure what your point is though. Some have wealthy backers, some have MUCH bigger gates than us (and several have gates as big as or bigger than the entire capacity of the Kassam Stadium), Yeovil and Barnsley are struggling in The Championship, whilst Peterborough and Orient, arguably two of the three clubs closest to our situation (plus Yeovil), are currently in Division 3. As you say, it is not so long ago that we competed with them - but my initial point was just how much football has changed in recent years - and with the likes of Swansea, Wigan, Brighton, Cardiff, Hull and Fulham on your list, you actually have confirmed my point by including those clubs.

Then again - how about this list: Luton, Stockport, Cambridge Utd, Wrexham, Exeter (now there is a warning), Lincoln, etc, etc, etc. We are much more similar to those clubs than to almost any on your list.

[YF Dan]

To play Devil's Advocate on this:

If IL had given Wilder a contract extension at Christmas time and we then embarked on our almost traditional New Year slump, do you think fans would be supporting that decision, or castigating IL as Wilder was never the man for the job? The brief was to get us promoted this season, not get us into a position at Christmas where we might the go on and win promotion from. The fact that Wilder chose to walk could be seen as a total lack of belief in his own ability to get his team promoted. His approach to many games has demonstrated his pathological fear of failure (rather than his appetite for victory), and jumping when he did removes the possibility of failure. Going to Northampton puts him in a win-win situation - keep them up and he has done well, don't keep them up and it's down to what he's inherited.

With regards to Lewis, two wins and three draws from his first five games suggested that he had "earned the right" to keep the status quo. It's only the last three games where the wheels could be said to have come off. That initial run probably gave IL some faith that Lewis could carry on in the same vein whilst the search for a new manager was carried out - with slightly less of the time pressure. As it happens, maybe that has worked out - only time will tell - but there was also no guarantee that a new manager would have done any better.

As others have mentioned, IL does tend to look at the long term picture and, I believe, this is one reason the process is taking some time - it's not simply a case of seeing who applies and picking the best. It also involves looking at who is currently under contract who may be interested and when those individuals may become available, i.e. pay compensation now or wait until end of season.

Whatever the position, I don't think IL will be rushed into any sort of decision because his timescale doesn't seem rapid enough to others. That said, if we continue to drop points as we have in the last few games, he may well look to someone available now, e.g. Keen, rather than wait for someone else, e.g. Tisdale.

Excellent post.

I think everyone is frustrated that we haven't appointed a new manager already, but I think we'd all be more frustrated if we'd appointed someone in haste and they'd proved to be a duffer. It's clear IL doesn't do kneejerk reactions...and he clearly sees the next appointment as a crucial one for the club, which I think we'd all agree with.

Keep your nerve everyone.

And while I'm here, I can't let this Wilder revisionism go unchallenged:

Please, remember that Wilder chose to leave us. He was under contract to us. He definitely would have got a new contract at the end of the season with promotion, and probably would have got one with heroic failure in the play-offs. He rewarded our loyalty with that pathetic display of petulance post-Dagenham and then walking out with the job not done.

Remember too that by leaving, Wilder exposed he had little confidence in us going up. This would have had an effect on our league form as the season went on - the manager's doubts would have infected the squad.

Remember too that blowing strong positions in the league was somewhat of a speciality of his.

Remember he was lucky to have a patient chairman, who could justifiably have got rid of him at the end of last season, or indeed the season before.

Remember too that this is still his squad, and we are still for the most part using his tactics.

Remember this list? John Grant, Lee Fowler, Ashley Cain, Marcus Kelly, Ryan Doble, Leigh Franks, Ryan Burge, Richie Barker, John Franks, Danny Philliskirk x2, Christian Montano, Conor Ripley, Dean Morgan, Mehdi Korrouche, Lewis Guy, Mark Wilson, Sean McGinty, Justin Richards, Lewis Montrose, Josh Parker, Daniel Boeteng. I do. Remember this catalogue of costly calamity next time we have an injury and the chairman says we can't afford a replacement.

Remember he had to be told to use the development squad.

Wilder did a great job getting us out of a horrible league but he was stale as constipated fart. Since returning to the league, he's broken up a successful team, wasted a bucket load of money on players who scandalously clog up Rage On's Database, reduced crowds to dangerously low levels, blown two promotion positions (to such an extent we haven't even made the play-offs), and chickened out of a third.

I will not let this "we would definitely have gone up if Wilder stayed" argument have any legs. If we were definitely going to go up, he would definitely have got a contract and the security he wanted. He bottled it and behaved like a spoilt child in the process.

[slappy]

I disagree that promotion would have got Wilder a new contract.
Falling home crowds despite being top of the league and in the play-offs compared to poorer league results two years ago when the crowds were higher.
Disenfranchised fans fed up with his tactics, personality, attitude /time for a change.
Chairman wanting a move away from loans and a focus on youth players stepping up.
Plus would Wilder have been able to progress in League 1, when in four years of League 2 he has hardly set the world alight?

I reckon Wilder had his chances to earn a new contract and he didn't merit one.

[YF Dan]

I agree with the points you make Slappy.

But I think Wilder would definitely have got a good new contract deal with promotion. I'm not convinced he would have taken it, but I'm sure it would have been offered.

[ty cobb]

Dan why don't you add Ryan Williams and Nicky Wroe to that list? Maybe because it doesn't fit with your argument? I know you haven't liked Wilder for sometime but this season he, combined with IL reigning him in a bit, had greatly improved with his record of loan signings this season and the two mentioned above are pretty good aren't they? Also couldn't see Robbie Hall on your list - slip your mind?

I don't think anyone said we were def going up this season, I believe we had our best chance in years and were 90% sure of getting in the play offs. To not offer Wilder a contract is proving to be a massive mistake, if you think Wilder was doing a bad job this year I suggest you look at the bench he has had most weeks, it was full of kids because yet again our injuries were impacting on this. We're not good enough to play a expansive attacking football game so Wilder played tactics that worked for us, keep in tight and nick a goal and it was working and I argue being in and around the top three is over achieving for us given the squad and injuies we've had.

Last 7 games Northampton have got 14 points. We have got 6. With Wilders record we'd be joint top. Fans unhappy with him being rewarded with a new contract at Christmas given our position are fools and I believe this is likely to cost us promotion this season. Last game of season, we need a win to get in play offs Northampton need a win to stay up, I know where my money would be and it wouldn't be on a team managed by ML. So a manager getting promotion from non league to league 1 doesn't deserve a new contract Slaapy? No wonder he left, this has all the hallmarks of the Atkins/Rix argument and look where that got us.

I don't think I've read anything on this forum as depressing as saying we are similar to Lincoln, Cambridge, Wrexham and Exeter. Luton I agree with, in terms of history, passion of support, number of support and I would actually rather be a Luton fan at the moment than a Oxford fan, they own their ground, are likely to storm the division next year and have a board which seems to know what it's doing. Even when we were in the Conference we were regularly getting gates bigger than most league one clubs as well as a couple of championship clubs. We should be in and around the league one play offs not farting around mid table in league 2 which given the standard of football I've seen this season is a poxy league.

[slappy]

There are several examples of managers doing well, but not the right man to take their club forward. Was it Doncaster sacked their manager a few years ago despite being in third or fourth place at around this time of the season?

[ty cobb]

There are several examples of managers doing well, but not the right man to take their club forward. Was it Doncaster sacked their manager a few years ago despite being in third or fourth place at around this time of the season?

Not that I can see from their Wiki page - since 2007 managers either been sacked due to poor results or have left to take jobs elsewhere. I did notice however, that Brian Horton is assistant manager there now.

Would be interested in a case where a manager left to join a team lower than their current team around this stage of the season and the impact this had. I can only think of one - Atkins at OUFC.

[JoeyBeauchamp]

CW made a series of mistakes when he was in charge of OUFC, as every other manager has done when in charge of their clubs. Principal among CW's errors was relying on short-term loans rather than long-term loans, permanent signings and the development squad. This season, and maybe some of last, this process has been reversed and CW established a decent permanent squad supplanted by some good loans (Wroe, Williams, Connolly). When we got a series of severe injuries, he relied on the likes of Ruffles, COD, Bevans, which is what IL had ordered him to do and was what the fans wanted. The youngsters generally did very very well, something CW and the coaching staff should be given credit for. There is very little, this season, that CW did wrong - the only thing was the below-average home form. But contrast that with the best away record in the top eight divisions, and the fact he had us in the play-offs when he left showed that he was doing the right thing. March/April would presumably have challenged him more, but I'd wager he wouldn't have got beaten at Newport or thrashed at Rochdale (I'm aware this is an immaterial argument).

IL had been warned with the Portsmouth situation that CW was not happy and was looking to secure his financial future. If IL decided that he was happy to let him go, he should have had a replacement lined up, and if he didn't want to let him go, he would have needed to have secured his future, whatever we thought about that. He has done neither and therefore deserves 100% of the blame for this situation.

[JoeyBeauchamp]

There are several examples of managers doing well, but not the right man to take their club forward. Was it Doncaster sacked their manager a few years ago despite being in third or fourth place at around this time of the season?

Huddersfield, Lee Clark?

[Snake]

For my money, we are a decent Division 4 side who might, just might, get to mid-table in Division 3 with a fair wind. I would love to see us go higher - but I fear that THAT would be "over-achieving".

Doncaster, Yeovil, Bournemouth, Swansea, Wigan, Brighton, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Cardiff, Orient, Peterborough, Hull or Fulham supporters could have made exactly that kind of statement in the last decade but where are they now? It's not so long ago we competed on the same terms/leagues as them.

An interesting list of clubs. Not sure what your point is though. Some have wealthy backers, some have MUCH bigger gates than us (and several have gates as big as or bigger than the entire capacity of the Kassam Stadium), Yeovil and Barnsley are struggling in The Championship, whilst Peterborough and Orient, arguably two of the three clubs closest to our situation (plus Yeovil), are currently in Division 3. As you say, it is not so long ago that we competed with them - but my initial point was just how much football has changed in recent years - and with the likes of Swansea, Wigan, Brighton, Cardiff, Hull and Fulham on your list, you actually have confirmed my point by including those clubs.

Then again - how about this list: Luton, Stockport, Cambridge Utd, Wrexham, Exeter (now there is a warning), Lincoln, etc, etc, etc. We are much more similar to those clubs than to almost any on your list.

Completely agree with ty “I don't think I've read anything on this forum as depressing as saying we are similar to Lincoln, Cambridge, Wrexham and Exeter. Luton I agree with, in terms of history, passion of support, number of support and I would actually rather be a Luton fan at the moment than a Oxford fan, they own their ground, are likely to storm the division next year and have a board which seems to know what it's doing. Even when we were in the Conference we were regularly getting gates bigger than most league one clubs as well as a couple of championship clubs. We should be in and around the league one play offs not farting around mid table in league 2 which given the standard of football I've seen this season is a poxy league.”

Yes, football has changed in recent years and continues to do so. Oxford United have missed the boat since WPL took over while other clubs similar to Us have jumped on board and are doing much better. So what if it takes a wealthy backer to help do that (though certainly not all the clubs I’ve mentioned have them), or even a smart one. To clear up what my central point is, it's the same as the topic heading of this thread.

[Jimski]

IL had been warned with the Portsmouth situation that CW was not happy and was looking to secure his financial future. If IL decided that he was happy to let him go, he should have had a replacement lined up, and if he didn't want to let him go, he would have needed to have secured his future, whatever we thought about that. He has done neither and therefore deserves 100% of the blame for this situation.

Yes, forget all this Wilder stuff, the above is the really crucial point.

[GodalmingYellow]

Dan why don't you add Ryan Williams and Nicky Wroe to that list? Maybe because it doesn't fit with your argument? I know you haven't liked Wilder for sometime but this season he, combined with IL reigning him in a bit, had greatly improved with his record of loan signings this season and the two mentioned above are pretty good aren't they? Also couldn't see Robbie Hall on your list - slip your mind?

I don't think anyone said we were def going up this season, I believe we had our best chance in years and were 90% sure of getting in the play offs. To not offer Wilder a contract is proving to be a massive mistake, if you think Wilder was doing a bad job this year I suggest you look at the bench he has had most weeks, it was full of kids because yet again our injuries were impacting on this. We're not good enough to play a expansive attacking football game so Wilder played tactics that worked for us, keep in tight and nick a goal and it was working and I argue being in and around the top three is over achieving for us given the squad and injuies we've had.

Last 7 games Northampton have got 14 points. We have got 6. With Wilders record we'd be joint top. Fans unhappy with him being rewarded with a new contract at Christmas given our position are fools and I believe this is likely to cost us promotion this season. Last game of season, we need a win to get in play offs Northampton need a win to stay up, I know where my money would be and it wouldn't be on a team managed by ML. So a manager getting promotion from non league to league 1 doesn't deserve a new contract Slaapy? No wonder he left, this has all the hallmarks of the Atkins/Rix argument and look where that got us.

I don't think I've read anything on this forum as depressing as saying we are similar to Lincoln, Cambridge, Wrexham and Exeter. Luton I agree with, in terms of history, passion of support, number of support and I would actually rather be a Luton fan at the moment than a Oxford fan, they own their ground, are likely to storm the division next year and have a board which seems to know what it's doing. Even when we were in the Conference we were regularly getting gates bigger than most league one clubs as well as a couple of championship clubs. We should be in and around the league one play offs not farting around mid table in league 2 which given the standard of football I've seen this season is a poxy league.

Massive mistake to not offer Wilder an extension? Don't think so Ty. Wilder had already agreed with Lenagan that automatic places were a requirement this season and Wilder had already agreed with Lenagan that any extension would be founded on whether that was achieved or not. We hadn't reached the agreed time for the review to take place, and Wilder did a runner. He wasn't due a contract extension when he left, so no mistake from Lenagan, and certainly not a massive one. Lenagan did exactly what he said he would do and exactly what was agreed with Wilder. Wilder decided the odds of that were no longer good enough for him, which I'm afraid reflects very poorly on Wilder himself.

[GodalmingYellow]

I agree with the points you make Slappy.

But I think Wilder would definitely have got a good new contract deal with promotion. I'm not convinced he would have taken it, but I'm sure it would have been offered.

I agree. I think Wilder would have got a one year extension and been told that provided we remained safe in League 1 he could look forward to a further extension the following season.

Whether he would have taken it would probably have depended on the money and surety of further extensions.