Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

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recordmeister
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Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by recordmeister » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:11 pm

I mean, it’s all pens and lucky deflections isn’t it...?!

Kernow Yellow
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Re: Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by Kernow Yellow » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:34 am

Ah a world cup thread - why not?

Nice to see England off to a good start, but I don't actually think we've played particularly well so far. Pressing a team in their own half is all well and good (and to be admired), but against Tunisia we sat off them as soon as they crossed the halfway line and gave them far too much space. Tunisia's penalty might have been debatable, but the ball should never have come into the box - the guy was allowed to carry the ball thirty yards to the edge of our box unchallenged. And yesterday Panama could easily have had three goals but for some poor finishing. I dread to think what a decent team could do to our back line. Talk of 'brilliant', 'exciting' England is wide of the mark imo.

Much of the rest of the tournament has been a bit disappointing too - only the Germany games have really had me gripped (I missed Spain-Portugal). Colombia looked good last night though - I'd worry about coming up against them in the next round...

Kairdiff Exile
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Re: Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by Kairdiff Exile » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:13 am

Big question mark for me about how England will do in their next game when they come up against decent opposition - although the same can probably be said of Belgium too. What I cannot for the life of me understand is why England eased off against Panama in the second half when one more goal (or one fewer conceded) would have placed them ahead of Belgium on goal difference and meant a point in the final game would see them top the group. The pundits barely mentioned it, but I think it'll end up costing them. **

I agree with KY that there haven't been many stand-out teams so far. Only Portugal and Croatia have really impressed me so far. A lot of sides look overly-dependent on one player (Argentina and Messi being the most striking example, but Portugal / Ronaldo and England / Kane fall into the same category).

Finally, watching it from here in Wales it really angers me to see how FIFA have bent over backwards so that "the likes of" Panama, Saudi Arabia etc have been able to qualify, whilst sides like Wales who would've been more of a test for the big teams didn't make the cut.

** EDIT: I know that, because of the "fair play" rule, England can still top the group with a draw by virtue of having a better disciplinary record, and that some are arguing finishing second might mean an easier draw but I'd always argue you should aim to keep it in your own hands and top the group rather than trying to be clever buggers.

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Re: Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by Radley Rambler » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:21 am

Kairdiff Exile wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:13 am
Big question mark for me about how England will do in their next game when they come up against decent opposition - although the same can probably be said of Belgium too. What I cannot for the life of me understand is why England eased off against Panama in the second half when one more goal (or one fewer conceded) would have placed them ahead of Belgium on goal difference and meant a point in the final game would see them top the group. The pundits barely mentioned it, but I think it'll end up costing them. **

I agree with KY that there haven't been many stand-out teams so far. Only Portugal and Croatia have really impressed me so far. A lot of sides look overly-dependent on one player (Argentina and Messi being the most striking example, but Portugal / Ronaldo and England / Kane fall into the same category).

Finally, watching it from here in Wales it really angers me to see how FIFA have bent over backwards so that "the likes of" Panama, Saudi Arabia etc have been able to qualify, whilst sides like Wales who would've been more of a test for the big teams didn't make the cut.

** EDIT: I know that, because of the "fair play" rule, England can still top the group with a draw by virtue of having a better disciplinary record, and that some are arguing finishing second might mean an easier draw but I'd always argue you should aim to keep it in your own hands and top the group rather than trying to be clever buggers.
Personally I really enjoyed that given how much the Welsh get behind us when we qualify. Same applies to Scotland although for some reason I have a soft spot for Northern Ireland.

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Re: Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by OtmoorYellow » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:56 am

I've really enjoyed the competition so far.

Sure Tunisia and Panama are weak sides, and in both cases, they would make Chopper Harris blush for their tactics. Good to see a ref finally get on top of the rugby style tackles England have had to suffer.

Going forward, England look very good. We create plenty of chances and have plenty of players capable of finishing moves off. Our dead ball play has been very good too.

Defensively, I agree we've looked a little suspect, especially with players running towards our goal at pace. We can also be a little slow moving the ball along the back line, and when both Tunisia and Panama closed our back line down, we made mistakes several times and looked capable of making more.

To be fair against Tunisia, their penalty should never have been given, and we should have had two penalties for rugby tackles on Kane. Those incidents would very likely have made a big difference to the final outcome.

The Belgium game will be telling, but only if Southgate puts out his first choice XI and Belgium do the same. Lots of changes will render the result relatively meaningless.

Given that we will either play the 1st or 2nd place team from group H, both of which we would be fairly likely to beat, I don't think topping our group or coming 2nd makes much difference. I predict the Belgium game will be a bore draw.

As far as other teams are concerned, Spain have looked the best at times. I didn't think too much of Portugal. For me they are a one man show. Brazil look to be building some momentum as well, and obviously Belgium look sharp. Germany have been very disappointing, as have Argentina. I've not been too impressed with any of the African or Asian sides yet either.

My gut feeling is we will definitely make the quarter finals, possibly the semis, but then the opposition will be too strong.

Finally, it feels a bit weird having a World Cup without Italy.

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Re: Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by SWA » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:20 pm

The penalty awarded against England v Tunisia was a penalty (crazy defending by Kyle Walker). However, England should have had 1, probably 2 for the holding of Kane at corners.

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Re: Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by Kernow Yellow » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:09 pm

That's something else that's annoyed me about this tournament. They've got VAR but they let teams get away with blatant (and I mean really blatant) holding in the area, while punishing highly debatable handballs and genuine attempts to play the ball. England-Panama was the first time that a ref has really clamped down on deliberate foul play in the area, but even the second penalty should have also been a red card, as the defender aimed a punch at the back of Kane's head while hauling him to the ground!

In general I feel the refs have been too quick to blow for fouls in 50/50 challenges but too lenient with their cards, meaning games are really slowed down by niggly fouling by players knowing they won't get booked as long as it isn't violent. Also kicking the ball away and preventing free-kicks being taken seems to be accepted as the norm now - very frustrating.

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Re: Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by Kairdiff Exile » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:13 pm

As we've mentioned VAR, what are people's thoughts? I was sceptical of it beforehand, and now feel vindicated. It's not stopped there being controversy, it's just added an extra dimension to it. Plus it has fundamentally changed the sheer joy of the moment when your team score - surely the best feeling in sport - because there's now an expectation every time that it'll be reviewed.

I console myself by remembering that it's unlikely to be used at Div 3 level any time soon.

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Re: Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by OtmoorYellow » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:52 am

For me VAR is not the problem. The way VAR is being used is the problem.

It works in cricket for several reasons. Captains (and only captains) can request its use but if they get it wrong a couple of times, they lose the right to appeal, so that stops excessive usage. It can also be used by on field umpires when they are unsure of decisions, and the key here is that the off field umpire makes the decision, meaning no need to get on field umpires wandering about looking at TV screens.

It works in rugby, because player respect of the refs decision exists and is vigorously upheld by the ref. Here VAR cannot be requested by the players, but only by the on field ref if he is unsure of a decision. Again the off field ref uses the VAR to make the decision so no fannying around by the on field ref.

In tennis, as in cricket, the players get to appeal decisions, but are only permitted to get such an appeal wrong on 2 occasions per set, otherwise suffering the right to appeal.

In football it isn't working because of FIFA's insistence on the on field ref having to make the final decisions. Why not let the 4th official do this? Then there would be big time savings. Allow each captain only to appeal to the ref, and 2 failures ends the right to appeal, with each failure resulting in a yellow card. Vigorously enforce the no approach to the referee rules that were introduced and then largely ignored by the players, and be prepared to use cards to enforce it. Vigorously impose the 10 yard deficit rule for players encroaching/preventing play continuing/feigning injury and use cards to enforce it. There might be a short term increase in cards issued, but this would diminish relatively quickly. Football is too weak in not applying the rules of the game.

The other problem of course is that the umpires in cricket and tennis, and refs in rugby, are of a much higher standard than the refs in football, and they apply the rules at all times. Football refs are simply not good enough in many cases.

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Re: Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by Old Abingdonian » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:33 am

Certainly true that the success of the review system in cricket has been to limit the number of times that a team can use it. This has established that the system is there to identify major injustices, not to put pressure on decisions that are marginal anyway. A further excellent idea is the 'umpire's call' principle: this could easily be applies in football. So if an offence resulted in the ref awarding a penalty / offside etc, then the decision stands, unless it was clearly wrong. Similarly, a decision not to award a penalty etc stands unless it was obviously wrong.

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Re: Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by Kernow Yellow » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:47 am

Completely different sports though - there are natural breaks between every single ball of a cricket match, whereas the flow of football (and a potentially crucial incident) could be interrupted by a tactical VAR 'appeal'. From what I've seen of it in rugby it works better (although not perfectly). It should be for things the ref misses, whereas currently it seems to be used as a comfort blanket by the on-field officials.

Respect for the referee's decisions and allowing opponents to get on with free kicks and throw-ins is such a joke at the moment it really makes the games almost unwatchable for me. Just start flashing some cards about and it would soon stop. I don't know how you stop teams like Brazil and Portugal feigning injury every time they're challenged though - they're not diving, so it's hard to punish, but it's definitely cheating.

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Re: Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by slappy » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:59 am

This VAR is ridiculous with all the breaks in play, stopping ages after an incident. It's clearly made for a tv market used to watching highlights of MOTD with endless replays from multiple angles. For the fans in the stands at the game, it is just frustrating breaks in play, and presumably they don't even see the replays?

Yesterday if Ronaldo was guilty of elbowing, then why wasn't it a straight red card?

Out of interest, do they still have two people on the goalposts, or is that done electronically now?

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Re: Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by Isaac » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:19 am

I don't think you can really compare the VAR in football with the DRS is cricket. The "umpires call" element is based on the predicted ball tracking (so what is expected to happen after the ball hits pad). It's not as subjective as VAR. There are still controversies in DRS too, these days mostly to do with low catches which are difficult to judge on TV. Plus it took a number of iterations of DRS before they got to the current version, which works pretty well (they also originally kept it all out of sight of the crowd at the game, but thankfully grew more confident and now show everything). One version was that the umpires could decide what to review or not review and as a result they reviewed just about every decision - natural human behaviour of an aversion to being wrong. Seems to me it's this that is being implemented in the football.

I saw the end of the Iran, Portugal game and I thought it was a shambles, if you have a TV ref in the ear of the on-pitch ref saying "you need to look at that decision again", then I think it will lead to the subjective decisions getting overturned repeatedly. What's most surprising is that they appear to be experimenting with VAR during the World Cup. I would think the rugby version is the one they should copy, but football is more fluid than rugby so it might not be straightforward.

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Re: Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by Kernow Yellow » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:34 am

So England changed the personnel but showed the same weaknesses - profligacy in front of goal, defenders backing off opposition players running towards and into the box, not blocking crosses (or shots in the case of the goal). And a central midfielder who seems to think it's rugby and he's not allowed to pass it forwards, which in turn lead to lots of long-ball hoofing from the back. I don't want to see Alexander-Armstrong take another free-kick or corner ever - they all hit the first defender/wall or were overhit to compensate. I'd wanted to see Rashford start, but he seemed too desperate to be the superstar and do everything himself (other than score when clean through of course).

But what really annoyed me was the ITV commentators making out that England were deliberately losing so they could cruise to the semi-final. Well two things: 1) the players on the pitch were clearly trying to win/salvage a draw, and Southgate didn't look too pleased the longer the game wore on. and 2) I hope the England team and management aren't so complacent about our ability to beat Colombia and Sweden/Switzerland as the pundits are. I'd rate all those games as about 50/50 given the way we're playing - which is not bad going forwards, but pretty weak defensively.

That Belgium goal celebration fail was very funny though.

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Re: Harry Kane vs Rob Duffy

Post by SWA » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:56 am

Trent Alexander-Arnold not Alexander-Armstrong (he does Pointless) :lol:

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