Bolton Bury'd

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OtmoorYellow
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Bolton Bury'd

Post by OtmoorYellow » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:37 pm

Both Bolton and Bury will start the season with a minimum 12 points deducted.

Bury's deduction results from their CVA, and they should escape further punishment, other than the punishment of having no money for decent players. All their decent players have now been signed elsewhere (apparently 6 of them for Plymouth).

Bolton's deduction results from a combination of their financial mis-management from last season (staff and players not been paid since March), and they face a likely further 8 point deduction as a result of failure to complete a fixture last season, and possible further penalties still for not complying with EFL financial rules, the date for compliance I believe ran out on Friday. I am told they may well be given 14 days notice of expulsion from the EFL on Monday if they fail to comply within that 14 days. Furthermore, their players are within their rights to give 14 days notice of termination of contracts for the club's failure to pay them.

It sickens me that two long established and historic clubs have been so badly mis-managed, and I truly hope both survive.

Dr Bob
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Re: Bolton Bury'd

Post by Dr Bob » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:00 pm

Yep - and with the football league and FA doing, well, FA.

Old Abingdonian
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Re: Bolton Bury'd

Post by Old Abingdonian » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:47 pm

I won't start a rant about how this is essentially the fault of the football authorities, fit and proper persons, etc., because I know we'd all agree. It's just very sad.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: Bolton Bury'd

Post by OtmoorYellow » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:02 pm

Both clubs have now been given until 5pm today to provide proof of being able to complete fixtures, or their games at the weekend will be cancelled by the EFL.

Given Football Ventures Ltd are insisting on buying the hotel next to Wanderers ground before buying the football club, this doesn't look good for Bolton in particular.

Radley Rambler
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Re: Bolton Bury'd

Post by Radley Rambler » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:57 pm

Is this the first time in the last decade that clubs really could be expelled from the EFL? I recall AFCW being 'rebranded' and Maidstone United being kicked out of the league and Chester, Rushden and Diamonds in non-league but I really can't think of many others at the 'Professional Level' who've actually gone all the way to non-fulfilment of fixtures.

I wonder how many other clubs are teetering on the edge? Will this become a common occurance? I also wonder how close we are if current owners get bored/frustrated by a lack of stadium progress.

Could an accountant or someone in the know on such matters provide some guidance on the following:

If we are mid-table in say February and chose to enter administration with a view to wiping off our debts, how realistic a scenario is that - what would be the practical implications of this:

- Would it wipe out our debt (or at a Xp in the pound arrangement)
- Would we lost the right to play at the Kassam
- Would we lost the player registrations that we have
etc.

I'm sure there are reasons we couldn't/shouldn't do this but would welcomed an informed view.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: Bolton Bury'd

Post by OtmoorYellow » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:02 pm

Radley Rambler wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:57 pm
Is this the first time in the last decade that clubs really could be expelled from the EFL? I recall AFCW being 'rebranded' and Maidstone United being kicked out of the league and Chester, Rushden and Diamonds in non-league but I really can't think of many others at the 'Professional Level' who've actually gone all the way to non-fulfilment of fixtures.

I wonder how many other clubs are teetering on the edge? Will this become a common occurance? I also wonder how close we are if current owners get bored/frustrated by a lack of stadium progress.

Could an accountant or someone in the know on such matters provide some guidance on the following:

If we are mid-table in say February and chose to enter administration with a view to wiping off our debts, how realistic a scenario is that - what would be the practical implications of this:

- Would it wipe out our debt (or at a Xp in the pound arrangement)
- Would we lost the right to play at the Kassam
- Would we lost the player registrations that we have
etc.

I'm sure there are reasons we couldn't/shouldn't do this but would welcomed an informed view.
You are mixing up all sorts of issues there, like cva and administration, both of which are different things.

Administration is where control of the club is handed to an accountant acting as administrator with a view to saving an otherwise insolvent business. A CVA or Company Voluntary Agreement might or mght not arise from that.

A CVA is an agreement with creditors to write off a very substantial portion of the money owed to them, so that they will at least have some chance of getting some of their money back.

Both a CVA and administration are automatic 12 point deductions in the EFL.

A company does not enter administration lightly, as the administrator could liquidate the company if they felt it wasn’t saveable.

Kassam would almost certainly claim breach of contract for any non payment of debts, as then he could do more or less what he wanted with the land, meaning nowhere for the club to play.

Unpaid football staff can give 14 days notice of cancellation of their contracts if they haven’t been paid.

Radley Rambler
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Re: Bolton Bury'd

Post by Radley Rambler » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:08 pm

OtmoorYellow wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:02 pm
Radley Rambler wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:57 pm
Is this the first time in the last decade that clubs really could be expelled from the EFL? I recall AFCW being 'rebranded' and Maidstone United being kicked out of the league and Chester, Rushden and Diamonds in non-league but I really can't think of many others at the 'Professional Level' who've actually gone all the way to non-fulfilment of fixtures.

I wonder how many other clubs are teetering on the edge? Will this become a common occurance? I also wonder how close we are if current owners get bored/frustrated by a lack of stadium progress.

Could an accountant or someone in the know on such matters provide some guidance on the following:

If we are mid-table in say February and chose to enter administration with a view to wiping off our debts, how realistic a scenario is that - what would be the practical implications of this:

- Would it wipe out our debt (or at a Xp in the pound arrangement)
- Would we lost the right to play at the Kassam
- Would we lost the player registrations that we have
etc.

I'm sure there are reasons we couldn't/shouldn't do this but would welcomed an informed view.
You are mixing up all sorts of issues there, like cva and administration, both of which are different things.

Administration is where control of the club is handed to an accountant acting as administrator with a view to saving an otherwise insolvent business. A CVA or Company Voluntary Agreement might or mght not arise from that.

A CVA is an agreement with creditors to write off a very substantial portion of the money owed to them, so that they will at least have some chance of getting some of their money back.

Both a CVA and administration are automatic 12 point deductions in the EFL.

A company does not enter administration lightly, as the administrator could liquidate the company if they felt it wasn’t saveable.

Kassam would almost certainly claim breach of contract for any non payment of debts, as then he could do more or less what he wanted with the land, meaning nowhere for the club to play.

Unpaid football staff can give 14 days notice of cancellation of their contracts if they haven’t been paid.
Thank you OY.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: Bolton Bury'd

Post by OtmoorYellow » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:56 am

Radley Rambler wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:08 pm
OtmoorYellow wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:02 pm
Radley Rambler wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:57 pm
Is this the first time in the last decade that clubs really could be expelled from the EFL? I recall AFCW being 'rebranded' and Maidstone United being kicked out of the league and Chester, Rushden and Diamonds in non-league but I really can't think of many others at the 'Professional Level' who've actually gone all the way to non-fulfilment of fixtures.

I wonder how many other clubs are teetering on the edge? Will this become a common occurance? I also wonder how close we are if current owners get bored/frustrated by a lack of stadium progress.

Could an accountant or someone in the know on such matters provide some guidance on the following:

If we are mid-table in say February and chose to enter administration with a view to wiping off our debts, how realistic a scenario is that - what would be the practical implications of this:

- Would it wipe out our debt (or at a Xp in the pound arrangement)
- Would we lost the right to play at the Kassam
- Would we lost the player registrations that we have
etc.

I'm sure there are reasons we couldn't/shouldn't do this but would welcomed an informed view.
You are mixing up all sorts of issues there, like cva and administration, both of which are different things.

Administration is where control of the club is handed to an accountant acting as administrator with a view to saving an otherwise insolvent business. A CVA or Company Voluntary Agreement might or mght not arise from that.

A CVA is an agreement with creditors to write off a very substantial portion of the money owed to them, so that they will at least have some chance of getting some of their money back.

Both a CVA and administration are automatic 12 point deductions in the EFL.

A company does not enter administration lightly, as the administrator could liquidate the company if they felt it wasn’t saveable.

Kassam would almost certainly claim breach of contract for any non payment of debts, as then he could do more or less what he wanted with the land, meaning nowhere for the club to play.

Unpaid football staff can give 14 days notice of cancellation of their contracts if they haven’t been paid.
Thank you OY.
Always a pleasure, never a chore!

OtmoorYellow
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Re: Bolton Bury'd

Post by OtmoorYellow » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:15 pm

Bolton were very fortunate yesterday, as they were bailed out by a £2m PFA loan to allow their Saturday fixture to take place and to provide funds to allow the club to run until the apparently pending takeover happens. That is if you trust the venture capitalists trying to buy the hotel as a separate business first (why?) before ploughing money into the football club. The takeover of the hotel might fail and so Bolton would be back to square one. And if the hotel takeover does happen, the venture capitalists might then just pull out of a takeover of BWFC, or the deal might fail for insolvency reasons or any number of other reasons.

Whilst it is welcome that Bolton will avoid winding up and expulsion as a result (for now), this appears to give them an unfair advantage over other clubs who manage their finances rather better.

Bury on the other hand, who were given the same, or very similar conditions by the EFL have in effect been thrown under the bus. No PFA loan to help them out (and I note the PFA Chairman Gordon Taylor used to play for Bolton!) and as a result, Bury's fixture on Saturday has been postponed, which will no doubt mean another mandatory points deduction. They have no takeover deal in the offing to date, so now their survival chance looks very bleak indeed.

There MUST be much stronger measures from the EFL to prevent clubs overspending, even if this means the gap to the Premier League gets bigger as it surely will with huge parachute payments dwarfing the turnover of any club not having had the pleasure of playing in that league. For any team that has not benefitted from the parachute payments, to have any chance of promotion to the Premier League now, without risk to future solvency, means a spectacular season without major external funding.

League clubs should never have a need to risk insolvency and ambition should never be an excuse for existential risk. It must always be better to be relegated than extinguished.

I remember once having a discussion with Mark Mallinson (not sure if he still posts on here or not) on the old MemorOx forum about whether the Premier League was likely to break away from the Football League. I thought fans would never let it happen. But he may well have been right that money will force it to happen eventually.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: Bolton Bury'd

Post by OtmoorYellow » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:48 pm

Feeling bad for staff and supporters of Bury FC.

I hope there will now be a supporter led club forming from the ashes, and if possible allowing the transfer of the Bury FC name to the new set up.

Dale has been a disaster for the club.

slappy
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Re: Bolton Bury'd

Post by slappy » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:35 pm

It sounds to me like Day was the disaster for Bury, doubly followed up by Dale. It seems Dale's daughter's partner was buying the club's debt for a very cheap price something like £70k for £7M of debt, and then hoping to get 25% paid off by someone buying the club and paying off the CVA.

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Re: Bolton Bury'd

Post by Boogie » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:35 am

So Bury buried but Bolton not buried.

In the run up to our match at Bolton it will be interesting to see who they sign and what squad they assemble.

We might play them before they are all match fit and gelled but with another points deduction to come for cancelling the Donny match (?) they could have a nothing to lose attitude, which might suit our style of play.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: Bolton Bury'd

Post by OtmoorYellow » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:38 am

Boogie wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:35 am
So Bury buried but Bolton not buried.

In the run up to our match at Bolton it will be interesting to see who they sign and what squad they assemble.

We might play them before they are all match fit and gelled but with another points deduction to come for cancelling the Donny match (?) they could have a nothing to lose attitude, which might suit our style of play.
Aren’t they under a transfer embargo?

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Re: Bolton Bury'd

Post by Boogie » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:00 pm

Presumably they can recruit players without a club or who get released?

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Re: Bolton Bury'd

Post by Boogie » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:10 pm

With all those loan signings they have made today, am I right that it is a maximum of 5 in a match day squad?

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