Ched Evans

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OtmoorYellow
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Ched Evans

Post by OtmoorYellow » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:27 am

So KR is apparently keen on signing him and allegedly claims players and supporters are behind the move.

Not convinced I want him in the side, even if he does score (goals) regularly.

Jimski
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Re: Ched Evans

Post by Jimski » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:00 am

I agree. He was recently linked with Portsmouth and an outpouring of distaste from their fans put the club off. (In fact they then denied even having an interest.) Maybe we can do the same somehow?

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Re: Ched Evans

Post by recordmeister » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:30 am

I need to spend a bit of time actually reading up on his case (which I might not do unless we actually sign him, as that’s not the type of narrative I’d find exactly enriching, I’m sure) but wasn’t he found ‘not guilty’?

To quote the Guardian newspaper “The jury of seven women and five men took less than three hours to find Evans not guilty of the charge after an eight-day trial.“

He also began litigation against his original defence team for negligent defence, and they settled out of court for £800k in April this year.

Maybe, in fairness, he didn’t get the best trial first time around?

Jimski
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Re: Ched Evans

Post by Jimski » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:21 am

There was an extremely controversial use of the woman's sexual history in the retrial (which was presented as "new evidence" in the case). He admitted he had sex with her, and CCTV showed her to be extremely drunk (stumbling about). She was evidently very badly affected by the case, and he refused to apologise. What's more his friends and supporters hounded her to the extent she had to move house five times and change her name.

Lovely stuff.

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Re: Ched Evans

Post by Ancient Colin » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:48 am

This is a useful summing up of some of the key issues, along with some very unedifying details.

Dr Bob
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Re: Ched Evans

Post by Dr Bob » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:56 am

Ancient Colin wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:48 am
This is a useful summing up of some of the key issues, along with some very unedifying details.
Fascinating article - and delightfully objective (apart from the wonderful answer to their own Q10). The Secret Barrister makes the point that Evans was not PROVED innocent, something that some of those writing replies/comments disagree with. Surely the point is that if one is presumed innocent until or unless proven guilty, then the key difference is between presuming and proving innocence - and I think that here the former applies, the latter does not (any lawyers out there to confirm or correct this?) Technically, from this I guess the English system is NEVER about proving innocence.

Whatever we may think of the morality of what happened that night, following extensive due process the upshot is that, where we now are, Evans is not guilty of the crime for which he was charged. We may not want him to play for our club if we consider that his engagement with sex under such circumstances is, shall we say, distasteful in terms of his behaviour to this woman or his attitude towards women generally (Jimski highlights some unpleasant stuff), but anything else and we risk becoming judge, jury and executioner, if we start to to think of him as being in any sense guilty of rape.

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Re: Ched Evans

Post by Kernow Yellow » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:03 pm

As usual in cases like this there’s a moral maze to be navigated when considering Evans’ potential signing.

At the end of a lengthy legal process he has been found not guilty. And indeed he had already served his entire sentence for the original conviction anyway. So I don’t see any argument that he shouldn’t be allowed to continue his career as a professional footballer.

Obviously the details of the case, conviction or not, show him to be a man of very dubious moral standards and attitudes towards women. I understand why people wouldn’t want him representing Us. I also thought he came across as a nasty piece of work when he played against Us in his comeback game for Chesterfield, antagonising the crowd instead of keeping his head down.

But he wouldn’t be the first morally dubious idiot to have played for Us - Danny Hylton had served a ban for racially abusing an opponent before he arrived at OUFC, and ended up as a cult hero. Chapman and McCormick managed to rehabilitate themselves, as should be their right after serving their time. Evans has no criminal record at all as far as I’m aware.

Also, for those that think that football is the only sport that would welcome back people with this kind of history, it’s worth noting what has happened to the Irish Rugby rape case players. Much like Evans, they were acquitted but shown to have behaved very badly. The IRU cancelled their contracts, and they went to France to keep their heads down. But Paddy Jackson has now been given a contract with London Irish.

The fact is that Ched Evans is a good footballer, and if he doesn’t play for Us he’ll probably end up playing against Us. And he’s Not Guilty.

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Re: Ched Evans

Post by Jimski » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:25 pm

It should also be remembered about rape cases that there is a far far lower conviction rate than for other violent crimes. (Enough to put off a lot of victims even reporting the crime.) And there is also little evidence to suggest that there is a greater incidence of victims lying about the crime. This suggests that there an awful lot of rapists going free.

The new evidence that brought about the retrial is of the sort - previous sexual history - that many feel ought not even be admissible. (Allowing such evidence feels to me like a relic from a former age, especially given Evans' team was reportedly offering monetary reward to people to come forward to detail the victim's history. I mean *what the actual fuck?*) This obviously does not mean Evans is considered legally guilty, but tbh, given his attitude, I draw my own conclusions about the type of person he is/was. "Rape-y", even if not legally rapist.

Given the fact that being a footballer is more than just a job, that it is representing a community, and that that community is roughly 50% women, I'd really rather avoid the likes of Evans representing our club. Someone doesn't have to be a convict to be the sort of person you'd really rather not have around. (Especially if one is serious about wanting to attract more women into football.)
Last edited by Jimski on Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Ched Evans

Post by Jimski » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:43 pm

An article written shortly after the Evans retrial, which puts his behaviour in a wider context of just how it is for women in the world of football: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... pect-women

Kernow Yellow
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Re: Ched Evans

Post by Kernow Yellow » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:47 pm

Jimski wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:25 pm
Someone doesn't have to be a convict to be the sort of person you'd really rather not have around. (Especially if one is serious about wanting to attract more women into football.)
That’s as maybe, but who is to be the moral arbiter if not the courts? And given that the courts are the arbiter, and given that this was a lengthy and seemingly thorough legal process, I’m not sure it’s reasonable to think you know his criminal guilt or otherwise better than the jury did.

I have read enough about Ched Evans to know what I think of him as a person, but I recognise his right to earn a living. And he happens to earn a living doing just what our club needs - playing up front and scoring goals.

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Re: Ched Evans

Post by Jimski » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:57 pm

Well, I guess in the age of President Trump*, people are not uncomfortable being represented by people who treat women as disposable objects. I'd hope it would give decent people pause for thought though.

*not convicted of anything either... (yet!?)

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Re: Ched Evans

Post by Jimski » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:14 pm

And, of course, legal decisions can be morally wrong. That's why people campaign to get such laws changed. A specific modern day example being this idea that a woman's sexual history should count against her in rape cases.

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Re: Ched Evans

Post by Old Abingdonian » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:40 pm

Professional footballers will be at different points on the scale between 'absolute gent' and 'scumbag' in how they treat women. It is probably the case that some current OUFC players are closer to 'scumbag' than I would like. However, what distinguishes the Evans case is that we know about what he has done before offering him a contract. And with that in mind, I would rather we didn't.

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Re: Ched Evans

Post by Jimski » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:17 am

I've been depressing myself by reading more accounts of the case, and its aftermath. It's bloody appalling. Many societies have had discrimination against women codifed in law, and we're not clear of that situation yet.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ch ... 62276.html

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Re: Ched Evans

Post by Dr Bob » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:20 am

Jimski wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:14 pm
And, of course, legal decisions can be morally wrong. That's why people campaign to get such laws changed. A specific modern day example being this idea that a woman's sexual history should count against her in rape cases.
This is where the legal minefields begin. My reading of the article AC linked to is that only under very specific circumstances can a woman's past sexual history be brought into a current trial - and those representing the legal system on our behalf determined that such a threshold was met in this case.

I think we are probably very close in our personal opinions of Evans. My initial point was that we need to be very careful about how we frame any arguments about whether or not we want Evans at United. Due legal process has been served, but he still seems an odious shit. And at a time when the treatment of women seems to be getting worse rather than better in society generally, given the amazing success of the women's World Cup football has a perfect opportunity to play its role in challenging that. The more I think about it. the more I feel that needing a goalscorer and being able to stomach Evans in a yellow shirt are too far apart.

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