You're winding me up!

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Radley Rambler
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by Radley Rambler »

Nice to see that Tiger cleared up all the uncertainty in his interview with RadOx.

So he agreed a payment schedule with HMRC that we adhered to, why then did they issue a notice or was the payment schedule not in line with HMRC's requirements?

When asked if he would bring in a fighting fund to mitigate any further unexpected expenses, he said 'no' - well, that's alright then........

What an utter car crash of an interview. No response to Oxvox's questions either. In the words of the great Johnny Rotten ' Ha haha, ever got the feeling you've been cheated? Goodnight!'
OtmoorYellow
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by OtmoorYellow »

Radley Rambler wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:08 pm Nice to see that Tiger cleared up all the uncertainty in his interview with RadOx.

So he agreed a payment schedule with HMRC that we adhered to, why then did they issue a notice or was the payment schedule not in line with HMRC's requirements?

When asked if he would bring in a fighting fund to mitigate any further unexpected expenses, he said 'no' - well, that's alright then........

What an utter car crash of an interview. No response to Oxvox's questions either. In the words of the great Johnny Rotten ' Ha haha, ever got the feeling you've been cheated? Goodnight!'
HMRC rarely agree payment schedules for PAYE or VAT. This is because PAYE represents (mostly) deductions from staff wages, so if a staff member is paid £30k gross, the PAYE is not an extra cost to the club over and above that, it is a deduction from it, so there is no excuse for the club not having that money. Similarly with VAT, the money never belongs to the business, it is collected by the business as an addition on top of the businesses sales on behalf of the Government.

Also as PAYE is a monthly commitment, there is no need for a monthly payment plan, unless the business gets seriously in arrears.

On top of this, PAYE becomes payable on the 14th day after the end of the tax period it relates to. PAYE tax periods run to the 5th of each month, so PAYE is payable on the 19th of the month. The HMRC winding up order was presented on 11 January. i.e .8 days before the PAYE on the December wages was due. Therefore, the winding up order could not have been for December PAYE. In my experience, it would be too soon for November PAYE as well, as although HMRC are quick to act these days, they aren't usually that quick to issue proceedings.

This leads me to believe that the club is in a much worse financial position than anyone is admitting to.

I would like OxVox to ask how far in arrears are we with the PAYE, and how much is owed to HMRC, and if we are in arrears with VAT as well. Also if we are in arrears of the payment terms of any suppliers.

I have real concerns about Tiger. I don't believe he is being open and honest with the fans about his intentions, motives, and financial position. I also want to know what the point is of the other directors.

I'll end with an Armageddon scenario, which I am not saying has any factual basis. What if Tiger is here purely to get the ground and surrounding businesses from Kassam, and has little or no interest in OUFC? Could we see a big hike in rent if Tiger obtained the ground? Could we see him acquiring the hotels and Ozone complex and then ditching OUFC? Take a look at what Tiger did at Reading.
recordmeister
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by recordmeister »

I don’t think it’s in FK’s interests to sell to anyone. The land the stadium is on is ripe for housing; nothing would give him more pleasure than to see us move home and break the covenant on the ground, so he can petition to build housing there.

We end up with a new ground towit Tiger owns. He sells the club and around we go again...
OtmoorYellow
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by OtmoorYellow »

recordmeister wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:21 pm I don’t think it’s in FK’s interests to sell to anyone. The land the stadium is on is ripe for housing; nothing would give him more pleasure than to see us move home and break the covenant on the ground, so he can petition to build housing there.

We end up with a new ground towit Tiger owns. He sells the club and around we go again...
Not that simple.

How would Tiger finance the new ground? How would he profit from it?
recordmeister
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by recordmeister »

Of course a business plan isn’t as simple as a post on a football forum; goodness knows what’s in Tigers plans long term and how he plans to add value to this investment. But a new stadium near, say, the new Oxford Parkway railway station would be a winner for additional development in and around that area for whomever should choose to be involved.
Kairdiff Exile
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by Kairdiff Exile »

recordmeister wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:13 am Of course a business plan isn’t as simple as a post on a football forum; goodness knows what’s in Tigers plans long term and how he plans to add value to this investment. But a new stadium near, say, the new Oxford Parkway railway station would be a winner for additional development in and around that area for whomever should choose to be involved.
That seems much more plausible to me than Otmoor’s suggestion. If there’s money to be made out of our current ground, Ka££am will make it. A new site however... well, that could be up Mr Thanakarnjanasuth’s street.
Radley Rambler
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by Radley Rambler »

Kairdiff Exile wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:18 am
recordmeister wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:13 am Of course a business plan isn’t as simple as a post on a football forum; goodness knows what’s in Tigers plans long term and how he plans to add value to this investment. But a new stadium near, say, the new Oxford Parkway railway station would be a winner for additional development in and around that area for whomever should choose to be involved.
That seems much more plausible to me than Otmoor’s suggestion. If there’s money to be made out of our current ground, Ka££am will make it. A new site however... well, that could be up Mr Thanakarnjanasuth’s street.
Perhaps a stadium at Water Eaton might fit that bill - has anyone considered this in the past?
slappy
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by slappy »

OtmoorYellow wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:55 pm
Radley Rambler wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:08 pm Nice to see that Tiger cleared up all the uncertainty in his interview with RadOx.

So he agreed a payment schedule with HMRC that we adhered to, why then did they issue a notice or was the payment schedule not in line with HMRC's requirements?

When asked if he would bring in a fighting fund to mitigate any further unexpected expenses, he said 'no' - well, that's alright then........

What an utter car crash of an interview. No response to Oxvox's questions either. In the words of the great Johnny Rotten ' Ha haha, ever got the feeling you've been cheated? Goodnight!'
HMRC rarely agree payment schedules for PAYE or VAT. This is because PAYE represents (mostly) deductions from staff wages, so if a staff member is paid £30k gross, the PAYE is not an extra cost to the club over and above that, it is a deduction from it, so there is no excuse for the club not having that money. Similarly with VAT, the money never belongs to the business, it is collected by the business as an addition on top of the businesses sales on behalf of the Government.

Also as PAYE is a monthly commitment, there is no need for a monthly payment plan, unless the business gets seriously in arrears.

On top of this, PAYE becomes payable on the 14th day after the end of the tax period it relates to. PAYE tax periods run to the 5th of each month, so PAYE is payable on the 19th of the month. The HMRC winding up order was presented on 11 January. i.e .8 days before the PAYE on the December wages was due. Therefore, the winding up order could not have been for December PAYE. In my experience, it would be too soon for November PAYE as well, as although HMRC are quick to act these days, they aren't usually that quick to issue proceedings.

This leads me to believe that the club is in a much worse financial position than anyone is admitting to.

I would like OxVox to ask how far in arrears are we with the PAYE, and how much is owed to HMRC, and if we are in arrears with VAT as well. Also if we are in arrears of the payment terms of any suppliers.

I have real concerns about Tiger. I don't believe he is being open and honest with the fans about his intentions, motives, and financial position. I also want to know what the point is of the other directors.

I'll end with an Armageddon scenario, which I am not saying has any factual basis. What if Tiger is here purely to get the ground and surrounding businesses from Kassam, and has little or no interest in OUFC? Could we see a big hike in rent if Tiger obtained the ground? Could we see him acquiring the hotels and Ozone complex and then ditching OUFC? Take a look at what Tiger did at Reading.
It's all about cashflow and a club that loses money every year unless there are significant cup runs or player sales. OK saying you pay someone £30,000, and perhaps it's £20,000 net and £10,000 to the taxman a month later. But if there is only £20,000 cash to start with, the player gets paid, and the taxman gets delayed. Also if the £20,000 was ticket income, then we also know that 1/6th of that is VAT due, again, if the cash is spent on the player's net pay, where is the cash for the VAT bill?

So Tiger is presumably paying the bills that have to be paid, such as rent, staff wages...

There is talk of unexpected bills.
The stadium dispute has apparently been taken out of arbitration - but not yet paid?
The training ground is costing more than expected?
The U-23 squad is expensive to run?

The second HMRC petition was apparently for just £150K or so, which in the overall scheme of things is pretty small change.

The first petition was explained as a mix up during the takeover which is believable. The second due to delays getting money into the country and unexpected bills. The third as being issued automatically although the club had arranged late payment.

Where is the money coming from? I get that Tiger had to pay off Eales which accounts for some of his initial investment. That Eales gets to keep the transfer instalments on players sold during his period of ownership. But where are the funds for an inherently loss making club. Are the big hitters of Thohir and Bakrie waiting for some sort of land / stadium deal before they will committ? Meantime where is Tiger finding the small change for these tax bills? If he'd made some money at Reading, why isn't it available to pay these bills? I think Myles found that his personal company makes a few million a year, I can't imagine he wants to spend it all on OUFC? Or is that really his short term plan?
Kernow Yellow
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by Kernow Yellow »

slappy wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:18 pm It's all about cashflow and a club that loses money every year unless there are significant cup runs or player sales. OK saying you pay someone £30,000, and perhaps it's £20,000 net and £10,000 to the taxman a month later. But if there is only £20,000 cash to start with, the player gets paid, and the taxman gets delayed. Also if the £20,000 was ticket income, then we also know that 1/6th of that is VAT due, again, if the cash is spent on the player's net pay, where is the cash for the VAT bill?
Exactly. It's perfectly possible to run out of cash for 'deductions'. The club still has to find the money for both parties (player and HMRC). The fact that the sums are regular and known in advance is neither here nor there if there are cashflow issues.

OY's 'armageddon' scenario also seems very fanciful - if Tiger were only here to do business with FK, why go out of his way to slag Kassam off at the fans forum? And Kassam was in turn very rude about Tiger & co in his RadOx interview. Doesn't seem at all likely to me that they're secretly colluding together on a deal for the wider Firoka empire.

Not that that reassures me at all - the club is still loss-making, and despite the presence of extremely high net worth individuals on the board, there doesn't seem to be a plan for changing that, nor moving us forward at all. Meanwhile, the best we can hope for on the pitch is staving off relegation. I do hope the club don't try and allow the current Checkatrade Trophy run to distract from the grim realities of our situation.
OtmoorYellow
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by OtmoorYellow »

slappy wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:18 pm
It's all about cashflow and a club that loses money every year unless there are significant cup runs or player sales. OK saying you pay someone £30,000, and perhaps it's £20,000 net and £10,000 to the taxman a month later. But if there is only £20,000 cash to start with, the player gets paid, and the taxman gets delayed. Also if the £20,000 was ticket income, then we also know that 1/6th of that is VAT due, again, if the cash is spent on the player's net pay, where is the cash for the VAT bill?

So Tiger is presumably paying the bills that have to be paid, such as rent, staff wages...

There is talk of unexpected bills.
The stadium dispute has apparently been taken out of arbitration - but not yet paid?
The training ground is costing more than expected?
The U-23 squad is expensive to run?

The second HMRC petition was apparently for just £150K or so, which in the overall scheme of things is pretty small change.

The first petition was explained as a mix up during the takeover which is believable. The second due to delays getting money into the country and unexpected bills. The third as being issued automatically although the club had arranged late payment.

Where is the money coming from? I get that Tiger had to pay off Eales which accounts for some of his initial investment. That Eales gets to keep the transfer instalments on players sold during his period of ownership. But where are the funds for an inherently loss making club. Are the big hitters of Thohir and Bakrie waiting for some sort of land / stadium deal before they will committ? Meantime where is Tiger finding the small change for these tax bills? If he'd made some money at Reading, why isn't it available to pay these bills? I think Myles found that his personal company makes a few million a year, I can't imagine he wants to spend it all on OUFC? Or is that really his short term plan?
Sorry Slappy, but that's not how businesses are supposed to be run. If you offer a staff member a £30,000 salary, you should have £30,000 to pay that salary, wherever each constituent element goes to. OK maybe not have it all on day 1, but knowing that you will have it when it is due. You don't offer a £30,000 salary if you will only have the funds to pay £20,000. That would be highly immoral and arguably even fraudulent.

The same applies to VAT, if you charge £20 for a ticket plus £4 for VAT, only £20 of that money ever belongs to you, the rest you are collecting for the Government.

Sure some businesses trade on the cashflow of timing of tax payments, but that HAS to be on the basis that when the tax becomes due, you definitely have the cash to pay it, not on a wing and a prayer that you might have it. That difference is part of what is called working capital. The reserve all businesses should have to pay their bills on time.

Whenever I have lectured students and discussed cashflow modelling with clients, these are fundamental business principles that I work through with them and you always make a significant allowance for contingencies.

It seems that this has nothing to do with difficulty getting money from Thailand or Singapore to the UK, which really isn't that difficult - the money markets between London and Singapore are incredibly active. It is due to Tiger not providing the working capital that the business needs.

It is simply unacceptable for a supposedly well run club to be in this position.
OtmoorYellow
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by OtmoorYellow »

Kernow Yellow wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:41 pm
slappy wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:18 pm It's all about cashflow and a club that loses money every year unless there are significant cup runs or player sales. OK saying you pay someone £30,000, and perhaps it's £20,000 net and £10,000 to the taxman a month later. But if there is only £20,000 cash to start with, the player gets paid, and the taxman gets delayed. Also if the £20,000 was ticket income, then we also know that 1/6th of that is VAT due, again, if the cash is spent on the player's net pay, where is the cash for the VAT bill?
Exactly. It's perfectly possible to run out of cash for 'deductions'. The club still has to find the money for both parties (player and HMRC). The fact that the sums are regular and known in advance is neither here nor there if there are cashflow issues.

OY's 'armageddon' scenario also seems very fanciful - if Tiger were only here to do business with FK, why go out of his way to slag Kassam off at the fans forum? And Kassam was in turn very rude about Tiger & co in his RadOx interview. Doesn't seem at all likely to me that they're secretly colluding together on a deal for the wider Firoka empire.

Not that that reassures me at all - the club is still loss-making, and despite the presence of extremely high net worth individuals on the board, there doesn't seem to be a plan for changing that, nor moving us forward at all. Meanwhile, the best we can hope for on the pitch is staving off relegation. I do hope the club don't try and allow the current Checkatrade Trophy run to distract from the grim realities of our situation.
Err, no actually. See my reply to Slappy.
slappy
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by slappy »

Its not just case of the club having working capital, if it were that simple, a well run club would say it needs for instance a million in cash at the start of January each year, and then would have sufficient cash to pay bills as they arise, even allowing for factors such as Football League solidarity payments coming in later in the year, season ticket revenues arriving earlier, instalments on player transfers.

Here it is clear that due to ongoing losses, the million will be used up by the end of the year or earlier, and needs topping up, again, and again.
OtmoorYellow
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by OtmoorYellow »

Kairdiff Exile wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:18 am
recordmeister wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:13 am Of course a business plan isn’t as simple as a post on a football forum; goodness knows what’s in Tigers plans long term and how he plans to add value to this investment. But a new stadium near, say, the new Oxford Parkway railway station would be a winner for additional development in and around that area for whomever should choose to be involved.
That seems much more plausible to me than Otmoor’s suggestion. If there’s money to be made out of our current ground, Ka££am will make it. A new site however... well, that could be up Mr Thanakarnjanasuth’s street.
The biggest money to be made in property development is capital profit, not revenue profit. Chances are a new commercial development wouldn't make that much, because it has to be financed. Hence my previous post about how Tiger would finance it. Generally in the early years of a commercial development, financing costs outweigh commercial revenues. Even Kassam, who is a specialist property developer, ran at a loss on Grenoble Road for a very long time (about a decade from memory), and that was only £10m finance out of a £13m development.

Cost of a new multipurpose complex on greenbelt land in mid Oxfordshire could easily be 3 times that figure now.

However, say OUFC owners negotiated with Kassam to sell now, rather than risk the automatic license renewal that the club is entitled to (which in turn would prevent Kassam developing the site for another 25 years), then Kassam makes a profit, and OUFC owners get the site at a rate that means housing development would potentially give them profit as well.

Ergo, any new stadium would be partially funded from day one without the need for borrowing.
OtmoorYellow
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by OtmoorYellow »

slappy wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:45 pm Its not just case of the club having working capital, if it were that simple, a well run club would say it needs for instance a million in cash at the start of January each year, and then would have sufficient cash to pay bills as they arise, even allowing for factors such as Football League solidarity payments coming in later in the year, season ticket revenues arriving earlier, instalments on player transfers.

Here it is clear that due to ongoing losses, the million will be used up by the end of the year or earlier, and needs topping up, again, and again.
No, cashflow forecasting prevents that.

And working capital, as explained above, normally incorporates contingency funding. Also it is not as if the costs claimed to be responsible were not foreseeable.

It is poor financial management, and that is all.
Kernow Yellow
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Re: You're winding me up!

Post by Kernow Yellow »

OtmoorYellow wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:41 pm Also it is not as if the costs claimed to be responsible were not foreseeable.

It is poor financial management, and that is all.
I think everyone’s basically making the same point here. Tiger can’t or won’t put enough money in place to make expected payments. And won’t explain the reasons behind it.

Seeing the team we put out at Bury last night, I wonder whether forking out for Robinson’s preferred striker was dependent on Us earning another lot of Checkatrade prize money!
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