Stadium (again) - fans forum

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Myles Francis
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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by Myles Francis » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:35 pm

slappy wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:08 pm
I think where Kassam is very wary is that another stadium owner makes money from the stadium that he could do, for short term gain.
Part of Kassam's issue is that when there is a change in ownership of the club, he ends up having the same conversations and receives the same sort of offers as he's had in the past. Eales was specifically warned about this, but still did it anyway.

Without re-hashing the debate about whether Water Eaton was or wasn't a starter, the interesting thing there was that there was an agreement in principle which would have seen both Kassam and the club benefit significantly. Kassam is a fairly straightforward person to deal with, but the other parties have to understand that any offer has to make commercial sense to him as well. It's the continual (in his eyes) derisory offers for the stadium which makes the situation more difficult than it needs to be.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by OtmoorYellow » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:22 pm

There was so much bullshit spoken by the club at the forum, about our license at Grenoble Road.

I have a copy of the license.

In my opinion, Kassam will never sell the stadium, except to develop for housing. There is simply too much money to be made from a housing development, and massive pressure on councils to provide housing. Kassam can't develop the car parks whilst the stadium is in use as it was a requirement of the planning approval that a car park with 2,000 spaces had to be provided for the stadium.

If OUFC vacate, Kassam would be free to challenge the sporting covenant on grounds of no available tenant, and once that was removed, housing development would be easy. How many homes on a site that large? Hundreds. Several hundred at least, maybe even near a thousand given the tiny size of new builds these days. How much is the average price of a new house in Oxford? £350k? Build costs are a fraction of the selling price. That is a hell of a lot of money to be made. Far more than the present value of the stadium with existing use, which I've been told by an estate agent with ties close to the club is maybe as little as £6m. Unless he has a sudden turn of generosity, Kassam won't sell. Full stop. End of story.

Kassam is guaranteed ongoing profits from the stadium now that he has largely paid down the borrowing on the stadium, so he has nothing to lose by hanging onto his asset. And the land value for alternative use will just keep rising.

There is no point complaining about the situation, or singing Kassam hatred songs. None of that affects Kassam. And sorry but a few OUFC supporters not buying a pint at the stadium or renting a room at one of Kassam's hotels, would be laughed at.

The only options available to the club are to stay put and accept that the club will not progress, or to move to a new stadium and benefit from year round stadium use and commercial revenue.

Myles Francis
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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by Myles Francis » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:15 am

OtmoorYellow wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:22 pm
There was so much bullshit spoken by the club at the forum, about our license at Grenoble Road.

I have a copy of the license.
Likewise, although for the life of me, I can't find where I've put it! Is there a clause in there which allows the club to take over the F&B concessions with 3 months notice?
Far more than the present value of the stadium with existing use, which I've been told by an estate agent with ties close to the club is maybe as little as £6m.
Which, coincidentally, was the figure Kassam was prepared to pay the club to leave the ground if the WE plan had come to fruition...
The only options available to the club are to stay put and accept that the club will not progress, or to move to a new stadium and benefit from year round stadium use and commercial revenue.
100% agree. How OxVox came to a polar-opposite view is beyond me.

Radley Rambler
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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by Radley Rambler » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:57 am

Myles Francis wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:35 pm
slappy wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:08 pm
I think where Kassam is very wary is that another stadium owner makes money from the stadium that he could do, for short term gain.
Part of Kassam's issue is that when there is a change in ownership of the club, he ends up having the same conversations and receives the same sort of offers as he's had in the past. Eales was specifically warned about this, but still did it anyway.

Without re-hashing the debate about whether Water Eaton was or wasn't a starter, the interesting thing there was that there was an agreement in principle which would have seen both Kassam and the club benefit significantly. Kassam is a fairly straightforward person to deal with, but the other parties have to understand that any offer has to make commercial sense to him as well. It's the continual (in his eyes) derisory offers for the stadium which makes the situation more difficult than it needs to be.
I'm sorry Myles but I'm not having that. I know of three instances (including one at my Wife's work) where bills were not paid by Firoka for work carried out or goods not supplied following payment to Firoka. I've never had to personally deal with them (I work in a different industry) but I would tread carefully if I had to engage.

Myles Francis
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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by Myles Francis » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:48 am

Radley Rambler wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:57 am
I'm sorry Myles but I'm not having that. I know of three instances (including one at my Wife's work) where bills were not paid by Firoka for work carried out or goods not supplied following payment to Firoka. I've never had to personally deal with them (I work in a different industry) but I would tread carefully if I had to engage.
By no means am I trying to portray Kassam as some sort of saint, but I'd wager that one could find similar tales of late/non-payment for a large chunk of SMEs in the UK.

The point I was trying to make is that he is portrayed as a "difficult" character to deal with, but often that comes from a failure to understand his position. For example, club owner's offering him £8m for the stadium when it is actually worth much more to him for the reasons already outlined on this thread by Otmoor.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by OtmoorYellow » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:22 pm

The license fee ("rent") for the stadium is based on a starting figure of £278,650 per annum on 1 July 2006 and is increased based on RPI at 1 July each year.


RPI at 1 July 2006 was 198.5
RPI at 1 July 2018 was 281.7

Therefore, the rent is currently £278,650 x 281.7/198.5 = £395,444.36 per annum, not the £1m that the club were claiming.

The rent may also have been increased a little if the club have excercised the right to stadium advertising and/or catering revenues. Any such increase would have been based on the average revenues generated from those sources for the 2 years before any such change. Kassam still holds the catering rights, but I'm less sure about the advertising. In any event the advertising rights will be small.

VAT is added to the rent, but can obviously be reclaimed by the club when submitting it's own VAT Returns.

The same process to determine costs applies to the service charge with a base line of the annual costs at 1 July 2006 (that is to say the service charges under the old original lease agreement). The services charges were traditionally less than the rent, so it is difficult to see how they could now be more than the rent.

The £1m figure quoted at the fans forum is completely bogus.

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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by OtmoorYellow » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:33 pm

One further point that is important, is that the license is 20 years from 1 July 2006. So it runs out on 30 June 2026, a little under 8 years.

The club has a right to renew the license on the same terms, but only once. Because the idiot sockless wonder agreed to this license, the club have no right of tenure after that and can be kicked out by Kassam. Under the previous lease, the club had right of tenure. So if Kassam is waiting for a housing development opportunity, all he has to do is wait.

The club will in effect be homeless on 1 July 2046, and that is entirely out of the club's control. Therefore, the club will HAVE TO find another stadium at some point.

Time for a new stadium is now.

Myles Francis
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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by Myles Francis » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:54 pm

OtmoorYellow wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:33 pm
Time for a new stadium is now.
Disagree.

Time for a new stadium was three/four years ago. There was a gaping window of opportunity then which, with a little vision and commitment on the part of certain parties, could have resulted in a solution which satisfied the needs of all the key players. Never say never, but I fear that window is now closed.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by OtmoorYellow » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:20 pm

Myles Francis wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:54 pm
OtmoorYellow wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:33 pm
Time for a new stadium is now.
Disagree.

Time for a new stadium was three/four years ago. There was a gaping window of opportunity then which, with a little vision and commitment on the part of certain parties, could have resulted in a solution which satisfied the needs of all the key players. Never say never, but I fear that window is now closed.
As we can't change the past, the time for a new stadium is now.

Radley Rambler
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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by Radley Rambler » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:52 pm

OtmoorYellow wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:33 pm
One further point that is important, is that the license is 20 years from 1 July 2006. So it runs out on 30 June 2026, a little under 8 years.

The club has a right to renew the license on the same terms, but only once. Because the idiot sockless wonder agreed to this license, the club have no right of tenure after that and can be kicked out by Kassam. Under the previous lease, the club had right of tenure. So if Kassam is waiting for a housing development opportunity, all he has to do is wait.

The club will in effect be homeless on 1 July 2046,
and that is entirely out of the club's control. Therefore, the club will HAVE TO find another stadium at some point.

Time for a new stadium is now.
You've got more confidence in FK's longevity than I have!

OtmoorYellow
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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by OtmoorYellow » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:58 pm

Radley Rambler wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:52 pm
OtmoorYellow wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:33 pm
One further point that is important, is that the license is 20 years from 1 July 2006. So it runs out on 30 June 2026, a little under 8 years.

The club has a right to renew the license on the same terms, but only once. Because the idiot sockless wonder agreed to this license, the club have no right of tenure after that and can be kicked out by Kassam. Under the previous lease, the club had right of tenure. So if Kassam is waiting for a housing development opportunity, all he has to do is wait.

The club will in effect be homeless on 1 July 2046,
and that is entirely out of the club's control. Therefore, the club will HAVE TO find another stadium at some point.

Time for a new stadium is now.
You've got more confidence in FK's longevity than I have!
Yes he would be 90 at the end of that period, but then the stadium is owned by Firoka Group, which means his family will retain control.

In any event, as a licensee, it would be madness to wait for a license to conclude before having alternatives in place. In addition, the longer it is left, the costlier it will be to build a new stadium.

slappy
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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by slappy » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:36 pm

https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/sport/1696 ... ium-pitch/

So we now have the University back maintaining the pitch at the stadium. There are hints at the stadium dispute between OUFC and Stadco, but no real clues. It seems odd to change mid-season, perhaps it's another swipe to go from a professional groundsman team to a cheaper option to try and put some pressure on resolving the dispute? Perhaps Otmoor Yellow can look up the lease requirement for what state the pitch should be maintained to.

So the last time the University was in charge was whilst London Welsh were churning up the pitch? Or were they taken on to try and fix it?

When did we last have it properly relaid?

OtmoorYellow
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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by OtmoorYellow » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:57 pm

slappy wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:36 pm
https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/sport/1696 ... ium-pitch/

So we now have the University back maintaining the pitch at the stadium. There are hints at the stadium dispute between OUFC and Stadco, but no real clues. It seems odd to change mid-season, perhaps it's another swipe to go from a professional groundsman team to a cheaper option to try and put some pressure on resolving the dispute? Perhaps Otmoor Yellow can look up the lease requirement for what state the pitch should be maintained to.

So the last time the University was in charge was whilst London Welsh were churning up the pitch? Or were they taken on to try and fix it?

When did we last have it properly relaid?
It’s a license, not a lease.

Off the top of my head, it’s a general clause about maintaining a pitch to the standards required by the EFL. I’ll look up the precise wording later.

The pitch was relaid summer 2017 IIRC.

Radley Rambler
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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by Radley Rambler » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:37 am

OtmoorYellow wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:57 pm
slappy wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:36 pm
https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/sport/1696 ... ium-pitch/

So we now have the University back maintaining the pitch at the stadium. There are hints at the stadium dispute between OUFC and Stadco, but no real clues. It seems odd to change mid-season, perhaps it's another swipe to go from a professional groundsman team to a cheaper option to try and put some pressure on resolving the dispute? Perhaps Otmoor Yellow can look up the lease requirement for what state the pitch should be maintained to.

So the last time the University was in charge was whilst London Welsh were churning up the pitch? Or were they taken on to try and fix it?

When did we last have it properly relaid?
It’s a license, not a lease.

Off the top of my head, it’s a general clause about maintaining a pitch to the standards required by the EFL. I’ll look up the precise wording later.

The pitch was relaid summer 2017 IIRC.
Yes but at our expense!

Kernow Yellow
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Re: Stadium (again) - fans forum

Post by Kernow Yellow » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:48 pm

Well, now things are much clearer!

https://www.oufc.co.uk/news/2018/october/statement/

I guess this is just a holding statement to try and deflect from the crap on the pitch. With the people who have recently become involved with the football club, I see no reason to be optimistic that we won't just end up in a Kassam-esque situation again, even if we do somehow get a new stadium.

It's all so bloody depressing.

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