Should the fans take the blame?

[ty cobb]

One thing that hasn't really been discussed on this forum is whether any blame lies with our fan base in this mess. You could argue that IL has simply done what the majority of fans wanted him to do. He refused to give Wilder another contract until promotion was secured, he didn't fight hard to keep him and seemed to encourage his talking to other clubs and then he conducted a (very) full interview process to get the "right" man in. This took longer than it should have but given the results under Lewis to begin with was not unreasonbale and if Waddock had come in any earlier could anyone really argue that the results would have been any better - there has been no evidence for this.

Wilder wasn't hounded out by our fan base but it was a relationship that had gone very stale due to the expectations amongst our fan base who seemed to think promotion was to be expected this year no matter what and Wilder would have failed otherwise. This resulted in catcalls from behind the bench at games, crowds dropping off despite an excellent season on the pitch (until he left) some banners asking for him to go and forums and phone in's where the number of people calling for him to go kept increasing.

Although some fans were not happy when he left, I would say the majority were and said IL had done the right thing, some comments taken from this forum are below:

"I shed no tears" " he seemed to have run out of ideas" " all parties knew it was getting stale and it was time to move on" "He was an OK manager who took over at the right time for both parties but for me he stayed too long" "I think that CW should have gone in the summer"

So given that IL was simply doing what many fans had asked for I'm surprised there has been so much ire towards him by some of those same fans. If like me you were very annoyed that Wilder had gone to the bottom team of the division I could understand the frustration but IL was simply doing what the fans wanted.

So our the fans expectations too high? Is it reasonable to expect promotion in a season where untried youngsters (who on the whole have done very well) are going to make up a proportion of the squad? Is it reasonable to expect silky football on a bobbly pitch which has is not looked after by the owner of the stadium and has rugby played on it. Is it reasonable to expect more from a manager who went unbeaten away from home for nearly a year? Is it fair to blame the drop in crowds this season on the manager when coming out of a recession and the closure of the priory means a day out at the Kassam is not that attractive regardless of the football?

As with Atkins, I think the majority of fans have got what they wanted, to the detriment of the football club and it's a bit rich those fans being unahppy about the outcome now.

[Brahma Bull]

One thing that hasn't really been discussed on this forum is whether any blame lies with our fan base in this mess. You could argue that IL has simply done what the majority of fans wanted him to do. He refused to give Wilder another contract until promotion was secured, he didn't fight hard to keep him and seemed to encourage his talking to other clubs and then he conducted a (very) full interview process to get the "right" man in. This took longer than it should have but given the results under Lewis to begin with was not unreasonbale and if Waddock had come in any earlier could anyone really argue that the results would have been any better - there has been no evidence for this.

Wilder wasn't hounded out by our fan base but it was a relationship that had gone very stale due to the expectations amongst our fan base who seemed to think promotion was to be expected this year no matter what and Wilder would have failed otherwise. This resulted in catcalls from behind the bench at games, crowds dropping off despite an excellent season on the pitch (until he left) some banners asking for him to go and forums and phone in's where the number of people calling for him to go kept increasing.

Although some fans were not happy when he left, I would say the majority were and said IL had done the right thing, some comments taken from this forum are below:

"I shed no tears" " he seemed to have run out of ideas" " all parties knew it was getting stale and it was time to move on" "He was an OK manager who took over at the right time for both parties but for me he stayed too long" "I think that CW should have gone in the summer"

So given that IL was simply doing what many fans had asked for I'm surprised there has been so much ire towards him by some of those same fans. If like me you were very annoyed that Wilder had gone to the bottom team of the division I could understand the frustration but IL was simply doing what the fans wanted.

So our the fans expectations too high? Is it reasonable to expect promotion in a season where untried youngsters (who on the whole have done very well) are going to make up a proportion of the squad? Is it reasonable to expect silky football on a bobbly pitch which has is not looked after by the owner of the stadium and has rugby played on it. Is it reasonable to expect more from a manager who went unbeaten away from home for nearly a year? Is it fair to blame the drop in crowds this season on the manager when coming out of a recession and the closure of the priory means a day out at the Kassam is not that attractive regardless of the football?

As with Atkins, I think the majority of fans have got what they wanted, to the detriment of the football club and it's a bit rich those fans being unahppy about the outcome now.

The suggestion Ian Lenagan was pressured or bowed to fan pressure over Chris Wilder is simply not true. The club board do listen to its supporters and/or read forums but make no mistake, they make the 'big' decisions not the supporters. The board were strong throughout the past 12 months on that subject. Were they happy with falling gates and disharmony? Most certainly not. Did Ian Lenagan listen to the supporter pressure last May when plenty were demanding a change and the banners started to make an uncomfortable appearance at matches? Did Ian Lenagan buckle to the vile abuse dished out to Wilder at Aldershot away and send him on his way? Lenagan did what he felt was best, despite the best efforts of some people to force a change.

For my part, yes I felt Chris had gone stale but I wasn't shouting calling for his head at games. It was embarrassing to hear him applying for other jobs, long before Portsmouth and Northampton came knocking. His regular arguments with fans in the SSL had become a regular fixture and had started to get more and more serious (some fans waited outside to confront him having accepted his invitation after a game during December time). Another embarrassing situation the club had to deal with.

Are we all disappointed that Waddock has been unable to turn things around over the last eight games, Yes. I thought his appointment would inject a change of fortune from the disastrous period over-seen by Lewis - who simply was never ever the man to turn things around either.

Was it the fans fault that the process took 9 weeks? If there is one major criticism of Ian Lenagan it surely is that. But if his counter-argument is that was the time needed to find the best candidate then he has done the right thing. That process killed our season in my opinion, along with a small "group" of demotivated and negative footballers who had a detrimental impact on those around them.

I recall making a comment on here a month ago saying some fans had given up. I stand by that - some have and some of the abuse this club has got, rightly or wrongly, would also have had an impact on our season. Cheering Deane Smalley off or subtly chanting Beano's name after 20 minutes of play (when he is benched) is counter-productive. Plenty of other examples too, chanting a month ago "top of the league.......and we....." how is that supportive or pulling together?

The club ethos is United We Stand. At times this season all parts of that (management, club communication, managers, players and fans) haven't all come together at the times needed. We all should share some blame IMO.

[ty cobb]

Interesting comments BB.

Having gone to Daggers and York at home where some of those chants were heard I must say that this was towards the end of the match when it was clear we were going to lose another game and suffer another average performance. I thought the support before that was excellent in terms of numbers and noise made, yet it still didn't inspire the players. Venting your feelings at the end when you've spent circa £50 on a ticket and travel to witness another nail in our play off coffin I feel is justified.

And of course IL did what the fans wanted, had the fans been chanting Wilders name and sign him on during this season he would have been given a new contract. One could argue he kept him on for a season to get out of paying compensation and had no intention of giving him a new contract, indeed no talks were forthcoming, which given the crowds and general sentiment I can understand, and if fans were waiting outside to confront him after games given what he did for us I'm surprised he didn't leave sooner.

[Kernow Yellow]

The suggestion Ian Lenagan was pressured or bowed to fan pressure over Chris Wilder is simply not true. The club board do listen to its supporters and/or read forums but make no mistake, they make the 'big' decisions not the supporters. The board were strong throughout the past 12 months on that subject. Were they happy with falling gates and disharmony? Most certainly not. Did Ian Lenagan listen to the supporter pressure last May when plenty were demanding a change and the banners started to make an uncomfortable appearance at matches? Did Ian Lenagan buckle to the vile abuse dished out to Wilder at Aldershot away and send him on his way? Lenagan did what he felt was best, despite the best efforts of some people to force a change.

Exactly. Lenagan has made it clear in the past that he will not bow to external pressure and will take the decisions that he thinks is right, however unpopular they might be. So we have to conclude that it is IL himself who thought it was best to get us into a situation where a manager doing well at the top of the league was having to look elsewhere for job security. As I've said before, it is the actions and decisions of our board that have got us into this situation, and once the season's formalities are over on Saturday they should be asked some serious and searching questions by journalists and OxVox. Lenagan had a decision to make on Wilder last summer and he didn't make it, opting instead for a fudge which he thought would act in his favour if we started badly again as we had the previous season. Trouble is we started very well and he was in a weak negotiating position and allowed CW to leave. Top of the league and Lenagan fucked it all up, basically.

Where I think Lenagan did bow to pressure (and this is just conjecture on my part, but it's how I read the situation) is in installing Gary Waddock when he did. It was pretty obvious that IL wanted to leave Mad Dog in charge until the end of the season and have a better pick of candidates then, and he was waiting for a 'good' opportunity to announce it. Trouble is, that opportunity never arose as our form tailed off badly, and after Chesterfield the fans made it abundantly clear to him that he had to act. So he appointed someone who was not necessarily the person he wanted due to time pressure (again my conjecture).

Having said all that, a growing proportion of our fans are impatient morons who think it's ok to shout abuse at our own players and manager (and any fan who dares challenge them on the matter) just to make themselves feel better. Did their actions contribute to CW feeling the future might be better elsewhere? Very probably. These fans are getting what they deserve - it's just a shame the rest of us are having to put up with it too.

[slappy]

A section of fans have been on Wilder's case for a fair few seasons. I won a trip to the training ground in April 2011, and that included lunch on the top table. Wilder jokingly asked me if it was me who had been shouting abuse at him at a game at Accrington the week before.

So he had been getting abuse for a good 2 and a half years prior to his departure.

See this Guardian article too.

The sequence of events as I saw it were that
a) the target for the year was promotion.
b) in January, despite being in the play-offs, contract talks had not started.
c) Lenagan could see crowds dropping and increasing discontent with Wilder.
d) Even if we were promoted, it is debatable whether Wilder would be a good manager in L1, and whether crowds would return.

At this stage, a couple of poor results at home resulted in the Portsmouth game where the team was set out not to lose, to keep Wilder's status up, rather than looking at the best result for the team.

So I think the fans definitely contributed to both Wilder's decision to leave and Lenagan's decision not to start contract talks. More of a factor I'd say in the latter is the home performance, dropping crowds, doubts over his ability even if we were promoted, and not buying into the ethos of sports science, youth development, and no loans.

[GodalmingYellow]

No fans should not take the blame.

Fans contribute by far and away the largest share of funds to their club and as such are entitled to their opinions.

If Wilder left because 2 or 3 fans gave him a few verbals, then that would suggest that Wilder was weak willed. Football management is a very public job, and you have to take the rough with the smooth.

However, I very much doubt Wilder left because of fans. I think Wilder left because he wanted the security of a longer term contract. Simple as. He had agreed with Lenegan on the timing of negotiations for that, which Lenegan stuck rigidly to. In hindsight, Lenegan's rigidity in sticking to that was the wrong way to go, because the effect of that was to leave the club managerless at precisely the time that we needed a manager.

Lenegan then took forever to appoint a successor to Wilder. Sufficient time to have appointed a replacement and sacked them twice over. Even a four week process would have been borderline excessive. But nine weeks was ridiculous and clearly exacerbated by Lenegan's poorly timed and poorly judged trip to Oz.

A nine week process to get the right man, turned out to be a nine week process to get someone who achieved worse results than Mickey Lewis, albeit we hope that will change with his own squad. Nine weeks was clearly completely unjustified.

So we have:
1) a poor decision in allowing Wilder to talk to other clubs.
2) a poor decision in sticking rigidly to an agreement that would inevitably have an adverse impact on the club.
3) a poor decision to go abroad for a lengthy period straight after we lose our manager.
4) a poor decision not to cancel the trip to Oz.
5) a poor decision to allow Mickey Lewis to continue despite results proving him to be ineffective.
6) a poor decision to take nine weeks to replace the manager.
7) a poor decision to appoint someone so far incapable of improving the results of even Mickey Lewis.

None of the above were decisions taken by the supporters
Supporters voice their opinions, based on their limited knowledge of the facts, but do not take decisions, other than attendance or not.
Chairmen and Directors make decisions based on their inside knowledge of all the facts.

The fact is that Lenagan took these decisions, and it was therefore Lenagan who was at fault for the demise of our season.

[Kernow Yellow]

The sequence of events as I saw it were that
a) the target for the year was promotion.
b) in January, despite being in the play-offs, contract talks had not started.
c) Lenagan could see crowds dropping and increasing discontent with Wilder.
d) Even if we were promoted, it is debatable whether Wilder would be a good manager in L1, and whether crowds would return.

At this stage, a couple of poor results at home resulted in the Portsmouth game where the team was set out not to lose, to keep Wilder's status up, rather than looking at the best result for the team.

That's a bit harsh, isn't it? I'm not sure how Wilder's 'status' would be kept up by a home draw with lowly Pompey? He set out not to lose that match precisely because we'd lost our previous two home games, conceding five goals in the process. He wanted the team to prove they could be solid again, that we hadn't become brittle. Insofar as that was the aim for that game, it worked, although the fans didn't like the perceived lack of ambition or entertainment of course. But we won our next two league games, our last under Wilder's management, both without conceding. In fact that game's kind of a microcosm of his tenure - solid, largely unspectacular, slightly dour; small steps to make slow progress, but progress nonetheless.

Also, you're missing the important bits from your sequence of events (clue - they come before your point a)). But I've banged on about that enough I think...

[tomoufc]

It's worth remembering, of course, that IL asked the Oxford Mail to conduct a poll asking whether Wilder should stay. I think this shows that he was very sensitive to fan opinion.

[Brahma Bull]

No fans should not take the blame.

Fans contribute by far and away the largest share of funds to their club and as such are entitled to their opinions.

If Wilder left because 2 or 3 fans gave him a few verbals, then that would suggest that Wilder was weak willed. Football management is a very public job, and you have to take the rough with the smooth.

However, I very much doubt Wilder left because of fans. I think Wilder left because he wanted the security of a longer term contract. Simple as. He had agreed with Lenegan on the timing of negotiations for that, which Lenegan stuck rigidly to. In hindsight, Lenegan's rigidity in sticking to that was the wrong way to go, because the effect of that was to leave the club managerless at precisely the time that we needed a manager.

Lenegan then took forever to appoint a successor to Wilder. Sufficient time to have appointed a replacement and sacked them twice over. Even a four week process would have been borderline excessive. But nine weeks was ridiculous and clearly exacerbated by Lenegan's poorly timed and poorly judged trip to Oz.

A nine week process to get the right man, turned out to be a nine week process to get someone who achieved worse results than Mickey Lewis, albeit we hope that will change with his own squad. Nine weeks was clearly completely unjustified.

So we have:
1) a poor decision in allowing Wilder to talk to other clubs.
2) a poor decision in sticking rigidly to an agreement that would inevitably have an adverse impact on the club.
3) a poor decision to go abroad for a lengthy period straight after we lose our manager.
4) a poor decision not to cancel the trip to Oz.
5) a poor decision to allow Mickey Lewis to continue despite results proving him to be ineffective.
6) a poor decision to take nine weeks to replace the manager.
7) a poor decision to appoint someone so far incapable of improving the results of even Mickey Lewis.

None of the above were decisions taken by the supporters
Supporters voice their opinions, based on their limited knowledge of the facts, but do not take decisions, other than attendance or not.
Chairmen and Directors make decisions based on their inside knowledge of all the facts.

The fact is that Lenagan took these decisions, and it was therefore Lenagan who was at fault for the demise of our season.

Pretty much agree with all of that GY.

Ty the vast majority of our supporters have once again been top-class but let's not pretend chanting Beano's name after 20 minutes is anything other than criticising the selection of an under-performing and low on confidence striker. That's not supportive. Chanting "Top of the League and we ****ed it up" 10 games ago is neither productive when this side needed all the support and encouragement the fans could give them. To see some of the vile abuse on Twitter - sent to players and directors - is neither supportive either. It begs the question to those limited few who decide that's how to relay their dissatisfaction if that's the way to change things.

As for Waddzie there is already some large differences between him and Wilder. I think Waddzie has laid his cards on the table and already made the big decisions, he has already talked about a different brand of football (pace, energy, on the front foot) and wants to embrace the youth system. He seems to go out of his way to be complimentary to our fanbase, the club staff and directors, talks about what a great and wonderful opportunity he has been given at a great club. Of course none of that means success but it is going some way to repair some of the issues some fans had with Wilder.

I am looking forward to his summer spending spree and next weeks retained list. Some players have already been told their fates and I heard one saying his goodbye's last week before the Accrington game. Some huge decisions will be made, it will probably get us all talking if Waddock is the right man. I think he is and he did very well to get this job.

[STEVE F]

NO GOOD TO BLAME FANS FOR OUFC RESULT OR THE STATE OF THE PITCH , THE BLAME LIES WITH THE SO CALLED PLAYERS AT OUFC WHO HAVE SHOWED THEY ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR A TOP THREE OR PLAY OFF PLACE

[SmileyMan]

When players pop up on news websites saying that they're 'hurt and embarassed,' that really sticks in the craw. Of all the people who have the chance to change the outcomes, they've got about 99% of the effect.

Saying they 'understand how fans feel' is even worse. Just shut your pie hole and go and train harder, think smarter and play better.

[ty cobb]

The below could read pretty much word for word with the replacement of the third word for what I was reading on forums a few years ago.

I think Rix has laid his cards on the table and already made the big decisions, he has already talked about a different brand of football (pace, energy, on the front foot) and wants to embrace the youth system. He seems to go out of his way to be complimentary to our fanbase, the club staff and directors, talks about what a great and wonderful opportunity he has been given at a great club.

I would love to share your optimism BB and if he achieves all the above and wins games kudos to IL. Big if though, especially given the state of the .

I do think it's somewhat naive to think IL didn't heavily base his decisions on what many fans, including those on this forum wanted. Managers don't leave for bottom clubs of division if the fan base are supportive. Fact is many weren't, IL and CW reacted to this and acted accordingly.

Did many fans get what they wanted (Wilder out)? Yes they did. Those that did should reflect on that the next time we're top 4 and not enjoying the football dished up and perhaps be a bit more vocal in support of the manager than quite the opposite, thus making it an easy decision to make.

And just when was talk of a new contract meant to start - IL said after Christmas but that came and went, what caused that to change especially given the interest from elsewhere, was a new contract ever going to be forthcoming?

[GodalmingYellow]

The below could read pretty much word for word with the replacement of the third word for what I was reading on forums a few years ago.

I think Rix has laid his cards on the table and already made the big decisions, he has already talked about a different brand of football (pace, energy, on the front foot) and wants to embrace the youth system. He seems to go out of his way to be complimentary to our fanbase, the club staff and directors, talks about what a great and wonderful opportunity he has been given at a great club.

I would love to share your optimism BB and if he achieves all the above and wins games kudos to IL. Big if though, especially given the state of the .

I do think it's somewhat naive to think IL didn't heavily base his decisions on what many fans, including those on this forum wanted. Managers don't leave for bottom clubs of division if the fan base are supportive. Fact is many weren't, IL and CW reacted to this and acted accordingly.

Did many fans get what they wanted (Wilder out)? Yes they did. Those that did should reflect on that the next time we're top 4 and not enjoying the football dished up and perhaps be a bit more vocal in support of the manager than quite the opposite, thus making it an easy decision to make.

And just when was talk of a new contract meant to start - IL said after Christmas but that came and went, what caused that to change especially given the interest from elsewhere, was a new contract ever going to be forthcoming?

Not sure how the Rix thing comes into it. That was a completely different situation. He should never have been appointed in the first place, and was not appointed as part of any recruitment process.

The rest is purely speculative on your part to support the opinion that shone through in your first post, even though you write it as fact.

[Myles Francis]

He set out not to lose that match precisely because we'd lost our previous two home games, conceding five goals in the process. He wanted the team to prove they could be solid again, that we hadn't become brittle.

No, he set out not to lose that match because that was the approach he took to virtually every home match since the 0-4 defeat to Rotherham. To be blunt, he was too scared of failing to actually go out and succeed. A trait which is now manifested in too many of the players.

[Myles Francis]

No fans should not take the blame.

Fans contribute by far and away the largest share of funds to their club and as such are entitled to their opinions.

Whilst I tend to agree with the general point being made here, when you have a sizeable proportion spouting ill-informed guff, I feel far less comfortable in absolving fans of all blame. For far too long there has been a very dark and negative atmosphere hanging over the stands on a matchday and it is no surprise when that filters through to the players, management, and board.

And we're getting it already with the anti-Waddock stuff. On Facebook tonight: "With Waddock, unless Lenagan is planning on getting Bale, Ronaldo and Messi....next season a mid table finish is being hopeful". So, before he's even had any chance to mould the squad as he wishes, he's being written off.