Should the fans take the blame?

[Matt D]

By proper I don’t mean dribs and drabs, corner cutting, reducing the budget and the annual bullshit about buying the stadium. A good start may be buying a large ‘For Sale’ sign to put on Grenoble Road.

i think whether we get annual bullshit about the stadium is a matter of opinion, although i guess you could well say the lack of obvious progress made over the last few years makes it a very credible one.

what is a matter of record is the increasing debt of the club to WPL. so i'm interested where you see corner cutting. there's some very obvious investment around the club: in the youth development system and the sales and marketing side of the club for instance.

to my mind the question isn't one of financial commitment, it's that we have a malaise around the club at the moment after blowing the very strong chance of promotion we had, and the talk of GW needing his 'own squad' is going to have to turn out to be very right very quickly.

[Mooro]

As an aside, should Jake Wright choose to leave the club this summer, it will be ENTIRELY due to the fans, or at least that section that bought the 'he's already agreed to follow Wilder to Noton' guff and targeted him with vile abuse and accusations of 'throwing games' from there onwards.

You can't make such a sweeping statement as above. If Jake Wright chooses to leave the club it could be due to a number of factors:

- Another club could offer more money
- Another club could offer a longer contract term
- Another club could be in a higher division/have more potential
- Another club could be closer to JW's wider family
- Another club could be in an area where housing etc. is cheaper
- Another club may have a familiar manager who he likes working with

There are a whole raft of reasons why he may move, fans attitude being only one and I suspect a minor one.

OK, there may be offers that are too good to turn down, but I would not class how he has been treated recently as a 'minor' factor in how he is viewing things right now - it could quite easily lead to him considering offers he wouldn't have looked at before, and may even lead to canny managers out there putting in speculative bids that they otherwise wouldn't have.

[GodalmingYellow]

As regards whether we've under achieved with our budget or not, we have to ask some serious questions about the management of the club and also ask if other clubs are over-spending to the same degree as us or are they accepting even bigger losses.

We had the 5th highest attendances this season just finished. Of those above us attendance wise, only Chesterfield finished above us. And Chesterfield's average gate was only 200 higher than ours. Arguably we have the highest priced tickets in the division as well, and so we must surely have a higher turnover than every club that finished above us this season, with the possible exception of Chesterfield.

So that then raises three possibilities:
1) Other clubs who finished above us had more to spend on players because they accepted bigger losses to fund the playing budget. This is difficult to imagine, given the size of our losses and the financial fair play rules that exist.
2) The size of the playing budget has little or no impact on results. Again this is counter intuitive as we know the best players command the highest wages.
3) We do not manage our playing budget effectively and pay too much for mediocre players. This is something that we really need to take a look at. We have in recent seasons signed several big name players, presumably on big money, who simply have not produced the goods. Do Chesterfield have a Dave Kitson in their side? Or York, or any of the teams above us?

Dave Kitson has undoubtedly been a class act and controls the ball and plays passes way too good for this level. But he is a striker who rarely scores and is seemingly only effective for 30 minutes per match before his legs go and he starts dropping back.

We went out of our way to sign Dean Smalley from a previous promoted club, on the back of a short time scoring run. I can't remember for sure, but I think we paid a transfer fee for him.

Peter Leven we signed, and yes he was very creative and worth watching, but injuries took their toll.

We need to learn that big names don't win championships. Teams get promoted, not individuals.

I wasn't to see our playing budget managed properly, with some held in reserve for January. Forget big name signings. We need a team in which every player is effective for 90 minutes in every game. That's what Waddock has to deliver on.

[Snake]

By proper I don’t mean dribs and drabs, corner cutting, reducing the budget and the annual bullshit about buying the stadium. A good start may be buying a large ‘For Sale’ sign to put on Grenoble Road.

I think whether we get annual bullshit about the stadium is a matter of opinion, although I guess you could well say the lack of obvious progress made over the last few years makes it a very credible one.

What is a matter of record is the increasing debt of the club to WPL. so I'm interested where you see corner cutting. There's some very obvious investment around the club: in the youth development system and the sales and marketing side of the club for instance.

To my mind the question isn't one of financial commitment, it's that we have a malaise around the club at the moment after blowing the very strong chance of promotion we had, and the talk of GW needing his 'own squad' is going to have to turn out to be very right very quickly.

Replacing Kelvin with your own kids, fans raising money to fund players and DIY decorations to the stadium like flags and a bit of yellow, raising prices above inflation or keeping them stable when a 5% VAT reduction occurred, reducing the wage bill, youth over experienced loanees when injuries hit, and above all the situation with Wilder (like him or not) must have saved a few quid.

While IL still runs a ‘big name’ Rugby club the Minchery Farm setup has become an expensive and fanciful distraction/hobby with no escape route other than selling low as he’s not going to get those millions of pounds back now – and the longer this situation goes on the further away from the promised land Oxford United become as the financial gap increases each year - http://www.theguardian.com/football/201 ... david-conn

To be honest I think the guy refuses to admit he’s failed, cuts his losses and moves on. He paid £2m (plus a quid) for the club, but it’s probably now worth half of that given the licence deal he authorised his solicitors to sign on 21st March 2006.

[Dartford Ox]

As regards whether we've under achieved with our budget or not, we have to ask some serious questions about the management of the club and also ask if other clubs are over-spending to the same degree as us or are they accepting even bigger losses.

We had the 5th highest attendances this season just finished. Of those above us attendance wise, only Chesterfield finished above us. And Chesterfield's average gate was only 200 higher than ours. Arguably we have the highest priced tickets in the division as well, and so we must surely have a higher turnover than every club that finished above us this season, with the possible exception of Chesterfield.

So that then raises three possibilities:
1) Other clubs who finished above us had more to spend on players because they accepted bigger losses to fund the playing budget. This is difficult to imagine, given the size of our losses and the financial fair play rules that exist.
2) The size of the playing budget has little or no impact on results. Again this is counter intuitive as we know the best players command the highest wages.
3) We do not manage our playing budget effectively and pay too much for mediocre players. This is something that we really need to take a look at. We have in recent seasons signed several big name players, presumably on big money, who simply have not produced the goods. Do Chesterfield have a Dave Kitson in their side? Or York, or any of the teams above us?

Dave Kitson has undoubtedly been a class act and controls the ball and plays passes way too good for this level. But he is a striker who rarely scores and is seemingly only effective for 30 minutes per match before his legs go and he starts dropping back.

We went out of our way to sign Dean Smalley from a previous promoted club, on the back of a short time scoring run. I can't remember for sure, but I think we paid a transfer fee for him.

Peter Leven we signed, and yes he was very creative and worth watching, but injuries took their toll.

We need to learn that big names don't win championships. Teams get promoted, not individuals.

I wasn't to see our playing budget managed properly, with some held in reserve for January. Forget big name signings. We need a team in which every player is effective for 90 minutes in every game. That's what Waddock has to deliver on.

You missed Michael Duberry from your list of overpaid injury-prone geriatrics that we have been blighted with in recent years. One of CW's failings IMO

[ty cobb]

GY I think you missed a number off your list

4. The club are tied into an unsustaniable contract for the stadium which means a large amount of money flows out each year in rent and little can be recovered in terms of off the field activities (which was the whole bloody point of the move) or indeed even food/drink sold to fans on matchdays leaving us at a mssive disadvantage to some clubs.

Interesting discussion, now the season has finished and we are stuck in this league for another season a few facts about the Wilder affair stand out, first fact is when he left, second is now.

Points difference between us and N'ton when he left = 23.
Now = 9.
Points a team with 22 points from 26 games and a GD of -16 made up on us = 14.

Points we were clear of York by - 13 (with two games in hand).
Points York clear of us = 9.
Swing in points = 22.

Points N'ton from safety = 6.
Points N'ton safe by = 3.

I believe the above demonstrates that Wilder is an excellent manager one of the best in the lower leagues. He took a small squad of largely average players and made them pretty much dead certs for the play offs with a reasonable chance of the automatics. They were hard to beat, solid, worked hard for each other and on their day played some great football. Since leaving the players have been shown up as in the whole pretty average. We were 6th in the form table when he left. We are now bottom of the form table. You could argue it was his fault we had average players, I would argue we have an average wage bill for the division this season hence the emphasis on youngsters and the mark of a good manager is turning a team into greater than the sum of it's parts - something Wilder is excellent at.

He also took a team doomed, added a couple of players and turned them from bottom of the form table to a team third in the form table. Does anyone really doubt N'ton won't finish above us next season and in all liklehood will go up?

So yes I do think the fans of this club should share in the blame. None of the above was good enough for the majority of our so called supporters. Most wanted him out at the end of last season and many didn't get behind him when we were doing well this season, more of a grudging acceptance.

Jake Wright is another case in point. One of our best most consistant players for years and a Wembley hero. In what may well be his last game for us he got a earful of abuse. When he busted a gut to clear a shot off the line you could see him turn to the crowd and gave some back. It is pretty clear the club captain does not think much of us and I can't blame him.

For the first time in many many years we had an excellent manager at this club. We let him go far too easily.

[Brahma Bull]

Ian Lenagan made every effort to address the Jake Wright situation at the AWARDS DINNER on Sunday night.

During his opening speech, he made specific reference to Jake Wright and the abuse he has endured over the last few months and specifically referring to Dagenham away and Northampton at the weekend. He made a public apology to Jake on behalf of the football club.

[Brahma Bull]

Replacing Kelvin with your own kids, fans raising money to fund players and DIY decorations to the stadium like flags and a bit of yellow, raising prices above inflation or keeping them stable when a 5% VAT reduction occurred, reducing the wage bill, youth over experienced loanees when injuries hit, and above all the situation with Wilder (like him or not) must have saved a few quid.
.

So the question is Why did he replace Kelvin and promote his own kids?

What's wrong with using youth over "poor and experienced" loanees such as Mehdi Kerouche?

I suspect our Youth System will yield its rewards far sooner than people imagine, whether that be a progression of kids plying their trade or the club selling some of them which will bring down some of the debt. Reports suggest the lad Ashby is going to be very good, we have Ruffels and Bevans - both who have shown they are good enough. Those two in particular could see the departure of more senior players and their high wages and seeing JR and MB become first team regulars.

The money saved could then even be re-invested in addressing strikers, something that has sorely been missed by the previous management of this club.

On a side note nice to see Jim Rosenthal et al at Northampton on Saturday as I was walking around the ground.

[Myles Francis]

So the question is Why did he replace Kelvin and promote his own kids?

Was it not under Kelvin's watch when there was a degree of confusion regarding a "loan" made to the club by a certain individual? And was there not a failure to properly account for the loan?

[Snake]

So the question is Why did he replace Kelvin and promote his own kids?

Was it not under Kelvin's watch when there was a degree of confusion regarding a "loan" made to the club by a certain individual? And was there not a failure to properly account for the loan?

Dunno (officially), but near the end of Kelvin’s watch WPL were saving money on mobile phone usage by not returning his calls so I guess every penny saved leads to pounds in the bank eventually.

Good to know Jim was there on Saturday. Does ‘et al’ mean the other three members of the ‘Gang of Four’?

[Myles Francis]

Well, at least you're not coming across as bitter about it....

[Kernow Yellow]

Ian Lenagan made every effort to address the Jake Wright situation at the AWARDS DINNER on Sunday night.

During his opening speech, he made specific reference to Jake Wright and the abuse he has endured over the last few months and specifically referring to Dagenham away and Northampton at the weekend. He made a public apology to Jake on behalf of the football club.

Interesting. What else did Mr Lenagan have to say about the way our season panned out? I'd genuinely love to know, since he doesn't tend to say anything in public which admits any failings in his stewardship of the club. Or was he blaming the fans for that too?

[GodalmingYellow]

So the question is Why did he replace Kelvin and promote his own kids?

Was it not under Kelvin's watch when there was a degree of confusion regarding a "loan" made to the club by a certain individual? And was there not a failure to properly account for the loan?

Alleged piles of unpaid unaccounted invoices and withholding the true financial state of the club. Not saying if true or who was to blame. You make your own minds up.

[Brahma Bull]

Ian Lenagan made every effort to address the Jake Wright situation at the AWARDS DINNER on Sunday night.

During his opening speech, he made specific reference to Jake Wright and the abuse he has endured over the last few months and specifically referring to Dagenham away and Northampton at the weekend. He made a public apology to Jake on behalf of the football club.

Interesting. What else did Mr Lenagan have to say about the way our season panned out? I'd genuinely love to know, since he doesn't tend to say anything in public which admits any failings in his stewardship of the club. Or was he blaming the fans for that too?

The Jake Wright segment was interesting, as I think it caught a few people on the hop. Jake looked a little surprised but the sentiments were right.

He added this was the first season where he had fans pointing at him, shouting at him and criticising him in public. He understood why. Lenagan also accepted he had made mistakes this season and pointed to the Wilder situation and then the length of time it took to replace him. He went on and said we needed someone who would embrace youth and that Wilder and OUFC were in effect coming to the end. He added we need to take one step back to move two steps forward. He did say that if he had his time again he would make the same decisions for the benefit of the club.

He talked about Lewis. He said he had to give him the chance to manage the club - IMO I don't think he did need to give him a chance but that was Lenagan's opinion. He congratulated so many people, sponsors, commercial, the coaching, indiviudal youth players from memory, even OxVox.

He then spent virtually the entire evening going from one table to the next talking to those on it. Each table had at least two players or coaching staff on it, except for ours.

[Jimski]

Not sure how one reconciles these two positions:

"Lenagan also accepted he had made mistakes this season and pointed to the Wilder situation and then the length of time it took to replace him."

"He did say that if he had his time again he would make the same decisions for the benefit of the club."

If it was a mistake, why do things the same again?