Stadco

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GodalmingYellow
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Stadco

Post by GodalmingYellow » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:16 pm

Oh, OK I'll start :lol:

Another tough year for Stadco in their latest accounts.

Kassam has had to loan another £400k from the parent company, and has had to refinance the bank loan. Somewhat surprising this as it was due to be fully repaid in the current year, but now won't be repaid for 5 years.

Reduced turnover, which has led to another reduction in staff to keep costs down. Tiny operating profit wiped out by bank loan interest.

The group has stopped charging inter-company interest this year, otherwise there would have been yet another huge (nigh on £1/2m) loss before tax on this company.

A point I've not really picked up on before is that equipment is being depreciated at just 10% pa, which gives an inflated balance sheet and reduces apparent losses. An old trick to present better figures than reality. Most equipment gets written off over no more than 4 or 5 years these days, unless it is something particular which has a known lifespan.

The balance sheet now shows a huge deficit of more than £1.2m, and current liabilities are saved only by virute of the bank loan refinancing resulting in a significant element of the remaining bank loan becoming due in over 12 months, making the position look better than it really is.

Overall, there is little commercial reality in the balance sheet, to which every possible effort has been made to make it look better than it really is.

In essence, without Firoka Group propping up this company, like the bar props up the drunk, Stadco would have gone to the wall long ago.

If I was Kelvin, I would be sticking in a bid of £2m (free of debt to Firoka) just to see if Kassam has had enough.

Almost forgot - thanks to Mark for the pdf of the accounts.
Last edited by GodalmingYellow on Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

OUFC4eva
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Post by OUFC4eva » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:34 pm

GY - what is the commercial mortgage balance at the year end ?

Snake
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Post by Snake » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:10 pm

I’m not a trained accountant (though learning fast) so having read the latest financial figures I’m thankful for GY’s initial input on this thread. However, without going into the minutiae I’ve some points to make.

Given that the figures are for the year ending 24th September 2009 the returns are prompt (as were the accounts for when Firoka owned OUFC) and are therefore in complete contrast to the current OUFC accounts, let alone the well-overdue accounts of our holding company (WPL).

At the risk of repeating myself ad-nauseum anyone who has gone to overnight conferences in their business life (and I’ve been to plenty of tax-payer funded yawn-athons) will know that a large part of the final bill includes accommodation, so the Firoka owned Holiday Inn next door will certainly benefit when it comes to the bottom line. i.e. when IL finally finds a proper investor for the club and pisses off back to Wigan then both the Conference Centre and Hotel franchise will need to be bought.

Despite the fact that inside the Stadium the facilities are half-decent the OX4 postcode is not a very trendy place to host a conference (or go out at night for a few beers with your workmates) and I would be amazed if it turned out that StadCo had a lot of return business.

GodalmingYellow
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Re:

Post by GodalmingYellow » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:16 am

&quotOUFC4eva&quot wrote:GY - what is the commercial mortgage balance at the year end ?
£2,883,146

ty cobb
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Post by ty cobb » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:58 am

Given the above why on earth did IL feel £13 million was a fair price for the stadium.

Snake
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Re:

Post by Snake » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:46 pm

&quotty cobb&quot wrote:Given the above why on earth did IL feel £13 million was a fair price for the stadium.
Because he never had the slightest intention of ever buying it?

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Re: Stadco

Post by slappy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:21 pm

&quotGodalmingYellow&quot wrote:Oh, OK I'll start :lol:

Another tough year for Stadco in their latest accounts.

Kassam has had to loan another £400k from the parent company, and has had to refinance the bank loan. Somewhat surprising this as it was due to be fully repaid in the current year, but now won't be repaid for 5 years.

Agree that parent co has introduced 400K, but the total bank loan has gone down by 550K, so perhaps Kassam has spare cash elsewhere in the group which he is using to repay debt.

Quite odd the refinancing. For the last 3 years the bank loan has been due by 13 June 2012, so why in 2008 it was shown as due within one year is a mystery. Also why refinance a loan at 0.85% above base rate to one 1.75% above base rate? (perhaps he wanted to repay some debt and the bank required a refinancing to do this, but seems odd to do it to the same date in June 2012)


Reduced turnover, which has led to another reduction in staff to keep costs down. Tiny operating profit wiped out by bank loan interest.

The group has stopped charging inter-company interest this year, otherwise there would have been yet another huge (nigh on £1/2m) loss before tax on this company.

A point I've not really picked up on before is that equipment is being depreciated at just 10% pa, which gives an inflated balance sheet and reduces apparent losses. An old trick to present better figures than reality. Most equipment gets written off over no more than 4 or 5 years these days, unless it is something particular which has a known lifespan.

The balance sheet now shows a huge deficit of more than £1.2m, and current liabilities are saved only by virute of the bank loan refinancing resulting in a significant element of the remaining bank loan becoming due in over 12 months, making the position look better than it really is.

Overall, there is little commercial reality in the balance sheet, to which every possible effort has been made to make it look better than it really is.

In essence, without Firoka Group propping up this company, like the bar props up the drunk, Stadco would have gone to the wall long ago.
Disagree - stadco generates positive cash flows. Add back depreciation and deduct the grant income credit and you get a post tax income of £312,688.

If I was Kelvin, I would be sticking in a bid of £2m (free of debt to Firoka) just to see if Kassam has had enough.
I don't think Kassam will shift from his valuation of the conference centre at £3M and the build cost of the stadium at £10M.
Stadco is cashflow positive and also provides a good source of income for the hotel - as Snake points out. Hotelco consistently makes money, and it may be a case of Kassam splitting the cost of a conference more in favour of the hotel as opposed to stadco. Every conference I have been on the room is always charged at the full room rate.

So why sell Stadco, unless you have a better use for the cash elsewhere? (and Ally Pally seems to have died a death)



Almost forgot - thanks to Mark for the pdf of the accounts.
Another small matter which I think is worth noting. Decrease in trade debtors to £187K, implying that OUFC are not getting further into rent arrears. (This was the figure back at September 2007 too, Sep 2008 was £224K.) Not sure if this is all OUFC, but one quarter rent is around £88K, (estimated £115K with service charge).

GodalmingYellow
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Re: Stadco

Post by GodalmingYellow » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:45 pm

&quotslappy&quot wrote:Agree that parent co has introduced 400K, but the total bank loan has gone down by 550K, so perhaps Kassam has spare cash elsewhere in the group which he is using to repay debt.

The loan repayment is just the normal annual repayment and has nothing to do with extra cash slopping around Firoka or Stadco.

Quite odd the refinancing. For the last 3 years the bank loan has been due by 13 June 2012, so why in 2008 it was shown as due within one year is a mystery. Also why refinance a loan at 0.85% above base rate to one 1.75% above base rate? (perhaps he wanted to repay some debt and the bank required a refinancing to do this, but seems odd to do it to the same date in June 2012)

The rate rise is becasue short term re-mortgage rates are higher than long term rates when the loan was orignially taken. As explained previously the refinancing is to avoid having to make the original repayments, thus reducing the monthly outlay, and I can't think of a single good reason to do this other than lack of cash.

Disagree - stadco generates positive cash flows. Add back depreciation and deduct the grant income credit and you get a post tax income of £312,688.

Unfortunately that's a very simplistic and incorrect measurement of cashflow. In fact it isn't a measurement of cashflow at all. You've not even taken account of any capital transactions. If Stadco had positive cashflow, Firoka wouldn't need to provide it with cash, which will be pretty obvious, even to untrained eyes.

I don't think Kassam will shift from his valuation of the conference centre at £3M and the build cost of the stadium at £10M.
Stadco is cashflow positive and also provides a good source of income for the hotel - as Snake points out. Hotelco consistently makes money, and it may be a case of Kassam splitting the cost of a conference more in favour of the hotel as opposed to stadco. Every conference I have been on the room is always charged at the full room rate.

So why sell Stadco, unless you have a better use for the cash elsewhere? (and Ally Pally seems to have died a death)


As referred to above your cashflow is just completely wrong at even the most basic level, and hence your conclusion on valuation is equally bizarre. Just look at the bottom line and you will see total net liabilities. The company is completely worthless even with Firoka propping it up.

Another small matter which I think is worth noting. Decrease in trade debtors to £187K, implying that OUFC are not getting further into rent arrears.

Yep, agreed on that point, although the balance sheet is only at 24 September 2009, so timing may affect that conclusion depending on when the rent is due.
Last edited by GodalmingYellow on Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GodalmingYellow
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Post by GodalmingYellow » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:12 pm

Click on the link below, for a page on my company site with the stadco accounts.

http://www.ttaccounting.co.uk/oxforduni ... ments.html

GodalmingYellow
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Post by GodalmingYellow » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:56 pm

Sorry to bring this one back to the top, but it involves a necessary message of special thanks to a Rage Online user.

Someone who uses the forum, and continues to have access to, how shall I say, very senior Firoka people, decided to report to Firoka, that I had posted the above link to the Stadco accounts on my company website.
There aren't many users of this forum who fall into that category of maintaining links with Firoka, and I think most of us would know who many of these users are.

I am struggling to think of a good reason that someone on here would do that without malicious intent.

The result of this action was that my wife, who has nothing to do with my company, took a call from an aggressive senior Firoka person, who was very threatening. My wife isn't used to dealing with such people and ended up quite shaken and concerned by it. I don't know if the Firoka person was acting under instructon or not, but their behaviour was completely unacceptable. If there is one thing I cannot abide, it is a bully.

Naturally my wife called me, and I'm rather more immune to such behaviour, so I immediately telephoned the said Firoka person and whilst they tried it on with me a swell, I sent them way with a large flea in their ear.

Needless to say, I do not appreciate my wife receiving threats as a result of the cowardly behaviour of an anonymous forumite, and I hope whoever it was, who will undoubtedly not own up, feels thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

This forum is supposed to be about discussing Oxford United and related matters, not trying to cause trouble for each other. Sure we all have the odd disagreement from time to time, but this action was way way over the top.

I'm not going to say anymore publicly on this matter, but if the person responsible wants to PM me with an apology, that would be appropriate.

Oh and for the record, it is perfectly legal and legitimate to publish company accounts that arealready in the public domain, including those published by Companies House.

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Post by Mally » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:41 pm

How do you know that &quotSomeone who uses the forum, and continues to have access to, how shall I say, very senior Firoka people, decided to report to Firoka, that I had posted the above link to the Stadco accounts on my company website.&quot? Couldn't they have just read this forum and followed the link?

This all sounds very strange. Why would anybody from Firoka call you in the first place? As you say all you have done is posted a document that is a matter of public record and infact a record that they are legally obliged to make public.

Who called and what did they actually say? Did they dispute your right to post the accounts or ask you to take them down?

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Post by Snake » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:51 pm

I've just mailed you about it.

recordmeister
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Post by recordmeister » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:51 pm

I have a google alert set up so whenever my company is written about on the internet, I know about it. It would be easy for Firoka to do the same and simply get an email every day detailing where they have been mentioned on the 'net.

Still, never nice to get an abusive 'phone call. :(

tomoufc
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Re: Stadco

Post by tomoufc » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:09 am

GodalmingYellow wrote:
This all sounds very strange. Why would anybody from Firoka call you in the first place? As you say all you have done is posted a document that is a matter of public record and infact a record that they
GodalmingYellow wrote:Oh, OK I'll start :lol:

Another tough year for Stadco in their latest accounts.

Kassam has had to loan another £400k from the parent company, and has had to refinance the bank loan. Somewhat surprising this as it was due to be fully repaid in the current year, but now won't be repaid for 5 years.

Reduced turnover, which has led to another reduction in staff to keep costs down. Tiny operating profit wiped out by bank loan interest.

The group has stopped charging inter-company interest this year, otherwise there would have been yet another huge (nigh on £1/2m) loss before tax on this company.

A point I've not really picked up on before is that equipment is being depreciated at just 10% pa, which gives an inflated balance sheet and reduces apparent losses. An old trick to present better figures than reality. Most equipment gets written off over no more than 4 or 5 years these days, unless it is something particular which has a known lifespan.

The balance sheet now shows a huge deficit of more than £1.2m, and current liabilities are saved only by virute of the bank loan refinancing resulting in a significant element of the remaining bank loan becoming due in over 12 months, making the position look better than it really is.

Overall, there is little commercial reality in the balance sheet, to which every possible effort has been made to make it look better than it really is.

In essence, without Firoka Group propping up this company, like the bar props up the drunk, Stadco would have gone to the wall long ago.

If I was Kelvin, I would be sticking in a bid of £2m (free of debt to Firoka) just to see if Kassam has had enough.

Almost forgot - thanks to Mark for the pdf of the accounts.
/
Does anyone know what the latest position is? If £2m seemed a reasonable buying price 6 years ago, surely the club would have the stadium back by now? Perhaps the guaranteed steady income from rent continues to make the stadium a valuable financial asset, and much more so than one would first imagine. I've done a bit of studying into infrastructure privatisation recently, and have found it startling the value that can be 'created' by using refinancing and credit default swaps and the like, thus elevating the shareholders' positions.
&quotI've been a slave to football. It follows you home, it follows you everywhere, and eats into your family life. But every working man misses out on some things because of his job. &quot

OUFC4eva
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Re: Stadco

Post by OUFC4eva » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:32 pm

Is it just me or does any body else
think that K@££@m and his people are trying to finish
the job and kill off the club?

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