Patto back for Saturday?

Anything yellow and blue
Ascension Ox
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Re:

Post by Ascension Ox »

&quotGodalmingYellow&quot wrote:
&quotBaboo&quot wrote:
&quotGodalmingYellow&quot wrote: In fact, as I suggested above, the low crowds are a good indicator of overpricing.
Low?
It depends what you are comparing with - capacity yes.
But we are starting to get 4000 home supporters turning up again.
We are the best supported team in the BSP.
We are in our 3rd season at this level so perhaps it is surprising that gates are still so high.
Low? I am not so sure.
Sure 4,000 is not low compared to others at this level, but it is low compared to historical OUFC support. Get the price right and the fans will turn up, but people won't pay over-inflated prices to see low level football.
Sorry, don't wholly agree with this, considering our league status, our current crowds are fantastic compared to our historical support.

I remember watching OUFC play a Div 3 home game in 79/80 in front of 2,500 people! and a Div 2 home game in 1991 in front of 3,500 people.

In fact crowds have held up well ever since we moved to the KasStad.
slappy
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Post by slappy »

I don't think the BMW / unemployed promotion was ever going to get many people in. The cost of a day at the football is not just the ticket price. Burger, programme, travel, beer.

As for tickets being overpriced, there are how many season ticket holders? 3,000? I think so long as price increases are kept to the rate of inflation or below whilst in this league, at least 2,000 will definitely renew. say 500 might be pondering because of worries about whether they will make all the games because of the fixtures shifting around. and another 500 might be strapped for cash and decide not to go.

I don't think there would be sufficient extra spectators on a regular basis to outweigh a significant reduction in ticket prices.

The Mansfield offer I think works for them as a way of getting kids in who want a burger and coke and an extra adult. But at OUFC the burger and coke income goes to Stadco.
GodalmingYellow
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Re:

Post by GodalmingYellow »

&quotAscension Ox&quot wrote:
&quotGodalmingYellow&quot wrote:
&quotBaboo&quot wrote: Low?
It depends what you are comparing with - capacity yes.
But we are starting to get 4000 home supporters turning up again.
We are the best supported team in the BSP.
We are in our 3rd season at this level so perhaps it is surprising that gates are still so high.
Low? I am not so sure.
Sure 4,000 is not low compared to others at this level, but it is low compared to historical OUFC support. Get the price right and the fans will turn up, but people won't pay over-inflated prices to see low level football.
Sorry, don't wholly agree with this, considering our league status, our current crowds are fantastic compared to our historical support.

I remember watching OUFC play a Div 3 home game in 79/80 in front of 2,500 people! and a Div 2 home game in 1991 in front of 3,500 people.

In fact crowds have held up well ever since we moved to the KasStad.
The fact is that prices have risen steeply at Minchery whilst the standard of football has dropped, and so crowds have fallen steeply. Prices need to reflect the standard of football being played, but they don't at OUFC.

The gates you quote support the argument too. They were very difficult financial times and the standard of football was poor whilst prices were hiked.

Club's can't expect to keep increasing ticket prices whilst the standard of football decreases, and still expect to maintain crowd levels.
ty cobb
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Post by ty cobb »

I'm afraid I disagree GY.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Oxfor ... dances.jpg

links into our average attendance over the years. You can pretty much track that graph against how we were doing in the leagues.

If we lowered prices by say £2, from £14 to £12 (and assuming this was the cost in the whole ground) you would need another 750 people coming along every week to make up the difference from the 4,500 already coming along who would pay less. I don't think we would get 750 extra punters through the door purely as a result of a £2 saving.

I think we should get rid of the on the day premium to not put off the fan who decides to go to the football on a given day but won't come back because it actually does cost quite a lot, but for those of us who go most weeks this is the main source of income for the club, any reduction in this would result in a worse squad.

If that £2 saving had no impact on gates then the club would be down £9,000 - how many players wages would that pay?

We have the best stadium in the league, Oxford is one of the most affluent places in the country it is not unreasonable to pay the highest prices in the league.

I would also say that I think the standard of football is currently higher then at any other point since moving to the Kassam, I'm certainly enjoying the football more then under Talbot, Wright, Rix, Atkins etc and we need to get people back in the habit of coming again - the product is now good enough to make them want to come back again.
Ascension Ox
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Re:

Post by Ascension Ox »

&quotGodalmingYellow&quot wrote:
&quotAscension Ox&quot wrote:
&quotGodalmingYellow&quot wrote: Sure 4,000 is not low compared to others at this level, but it is low compared to historical OUFC support. Get the price right and the fans will turn up, but people won't pay over-inflated prices to see low level football.
Sorry, don't wholly agree with this, considering our league status, our current crowds are fantastic compared to our historical support.

I remember watching OUFC play a Div 3 home game in 79/80 in front of 2,500 people! and a Div 2 home game in 1991 in front of 3,500 people.

In fact crowds have held up well ever since we moved to the KasStad.
The fact is that prices have risen steeply at Minchery whilst the standard of football has dropped, and so crowds have fallen steeply. Prices need to reflect the standard of football being played, but they don't at OUFC.

The gates you quote support the argument too. They were very difficult financial times and the standard of football was poor whilst prices were hiked.

Club's can't expect to keep increasing ticket prices whilst the standard of football decreases, and still expect to maintain crowd levels.

But crowds have NOT fallen that steeply, surely?

And, also, the club have not really increased ticket prices since we went into BSP.

The 'standard of football' you refer to above in 1979 and 1991 was 2 or 3 leagues above where we are now. And the crowds were rank.

I actually think a load of supporters prefer the new ground to the ultimately shambolic Manor. I know i do.

Conclusion, I don't think the crowds are low, I don't think tickets are massively over priced either.

Not in re the current standard of play being shown by the team.
GodalmingYellow
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Re:

Post by GodalmingYellow »

&quotAscension Ox&quot wrote:
&quotGodalmingYellow&quot wrote:
&quotAscension Ox&quot wrote: Sorry, don't wholly agree with this, considering our league status, our current crowds are fantastic compared to our historical support.

I remember watching OUFC play a Div 3 home game in 79/80 in front of 2,500 people! and a Div 2 home game in 1991 in front of 3,500 people.

In fact crowds have held up well ever since we moved to the KasStad.
The fact is that prices have risen steeply at Minchery whilst the standard of football has dropped, and so crowds have fallen steeply. Prices need to reflect the standard of football being played, but they don't at OUFC.

The gates you quote support the argument too. They were very difficult financial times and the standard of football was poor whilst prices were hiked.

Club's can't expect to keep increasing ticket prices whilst the standard of football decreases, and still expect to maintain crowd levels.

But crowds have NOT fallen that steeply, surely?

And, also, the club have not really increased ticket prices since we went into BSP.

The 'standard of football' you refer to above in 1979 and 1991 was 2 or 3 leagues above where we are now. And the crowds were rank.

I actually think a load of supporters prefer the new ground to the ultimately shambolic Manor. I know i do.

Conclusion, I don't think the crowds are low, I don't think tickets are massively over priced either.

Not in re the current standard of play being shown by the team.
OK, lets do the stats then. Thanks to RO for the gate numbers and OM for the ticket prices.

First season at Minchery, average league attendance 6,303.
Current season average league attendance 4,403.

That's a drop of 30.1%, which is pretty substantial by any test.

Over the same period:
First season at Minchery adult SSU matchday ticket price £13.00
Current season adult SSU matchday ticket price £20.00

That's an increase of 53.8%.

For some tickets the price hike is much bigger than that. And just to support the issue about kids tickets, in the first season at Minchery, an under 11 season ticket was £30. Current season £70, an increase of 133.3%.

Couple those figures with a drop of 2 divisions, and the picture looks even worse.
Dr Bob
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Post by Dr Bob »

A few thoughts on why I think some of GYs economics are suspect.

Allowing for some variation in attendances year to year, it is only really the latter part of last season and then this that has seen attendances drop significantly. Comparing this season with the first season at Minchery is misleading. Until then, attendances held up remarkably well.

A similar statement could be made for ticket prices. I do not have year on year data available, but I suspect that most 'core' ticket prices have remained relatively unchanged for the three Conference seasons. In the meantime, inflation has resulted in a reduction in the real ticket price below the level implied by the £20 nominal figure (offered, inappropriately I feel, in direct comparison with the £13 figure). Thus where there was a rise in the 'core' prices, it would have been mainly before our exit from the league.

As for charging different (non-core) prices for different groups, the whole point of (second-degree) price discrimination is to allow individuals to choose from a range of ticket price options as best suits their needs (eg money to spend, time to commit, etc) - whilst, hopefully, those setting the prices have the ability to select those prices (and what each ticket option offers) such as to maximise total revenue.

Something else that I do not think has yet come up is that consumer loyalty of the degree exhibited by football supporters tends to negate - or, at least, undermine - most of the normal principles of demand. In particular, relegation can actually see demand go up for the following season, if supporters believe that the team will do much better in the lower division. Moreover, football fans' eternal optimism (at least as it stands each summer at season ticket buying time regarding the chances for the coming season), means that the downwards adjustment of expectations can take some considerable time. Thus it perhaps took a season and a half for some fans to adjust their expectations about OUFCs ability and performance now we are in the Conference - and any downwards adjustment will still get an upwards shift each summer for many.

In short, given the peculiar nature of the item we are talking about, suggesting demand is simply and principally a function of price is an over-simplification of what is actually a much more complex story. Within-season variations in attendances bear this out.
GodalmingYellow
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Re:

Post by GodalmingYellow »

&quotDr Bob&quot wrote:A few thoughts on why I think some of GYs economics are suspect.

Allowing for some variation in attendances year to year, it is only really the latter part of last season and then this that has seen attendances drop significantly. Comparing this season with the first season at Minchery is misleading. Until then, attendances held up remarkably well.

A similar statement could be made for ticket prices. I do not have year on year data available, but I suspect that most 'core' ticket prices have remained relatively unchanged for the three Conference seasons. In the meantime, inflation has resulted in a reduction in the real ticket price below the level implied by the £20 nominal figure (offered, inappropriately I feel, in direct comparison with the £13 figure). Thus where there was a rise in the 'core' prices, it would have been mainly before our exit from the league.

As for charging different (non-core) prices for different groups, the whole point of (second-degree) price discrimination is to allow individuals to choose from a range of ticket price options as best suits their needs (eg money to spend, time to commit, etc) - whilst, hopefully, those setting the prices have the ability to select those prices (and what each ticket option offers) such as to maximise total revenue.

Something else that I do not think has yet come up is that consumer loyalty of the degree exhibited by football supporters tends to negate - or, at least, undermine - most of the normal principles of demand. In particular, relegation can actually see demand go up for the following season, if supporters believe that the team will do much better in the lower division. Moreover, football fans' eternal optimism (at least as it stands each summer at season ticket buying time regarding the chances for the coming season), means that the downwards adjustment of expectations can take some considerable time. Thus it perhaps took a season and a half for some fans to adjust their expectations about OUFCs ability and performance now we are in the Conference - and any downwards adjustment will still get an upwards shift each summer for many.

In short, given the peculiar nature of the item we are talking about, suggesting demand is simply and principally a function of price is an over-simplification of what is actually a much more complex story. Within-season variations in attendances bear this out.
I don't think any of the above points invalidate any of the points I have raised, and in many cases I wouldn't agree with the conclusions drawn by Dr B. Inflation is perhaps the only element of the above that I might concede, but even that is arguable given the increase in general wealth over the same period thus negating any influence on purchasing by supporters over the same period, and that is getting very technical.

Simple stats show the large increases in ticket prices over a reasonable testing period, versus large drops in the supporter numbers over the same period and reduction in playing standard. I've not deliberately or knowlingly picked only those stats which show the conclusion, they are randomyl selected fromt he information available. I have no doubt I could pick many genuine stats which would show the same thing.

FWIW, the conclusion you ascribed to me Dr B, isn't my conclusion either.
ty cobb
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Post by ty cobb »

Oh come on GY, you've picked our first season in a new stadium with a new manager and a sense of optimism, where crowds are generally higher then they would normally be, and compared it against this season where many fans have given up due to the awful season we had last year - random selection indeed!

If you compared our first season in the Conference against the last season at the Manor then you theory would be disproved. We have gone from playing in the third tier of English football to playing in the fifth tier, prices have gone substantially up in that time yet the average crowd was higher - how do you explain that one??
GodalmingYellow
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Re:

Post by GodalmingYellow »

&quotty cobb&quot wrote:Oh come on GY, you've picked our first season in a new stadium with a new manager and a sense of optimism, where crowds are generally higher then they would normally be, and compared it against this season where many fans have given up due to the awful season we had last year - random selection indeed!

If you compared our first season in the Conference against the last season at the Manor then you theory would be disproved. We have gone from playing in the third tier of English football to playing in the fifth tier, prices have gone substantially up in that time yet the average crowd was higher - how do you explain that one??
You write that and claim I'm picking and choosing?? OK Ty, whatever.
ty cobb
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Re:

Post by ty cobb »

&quotGodalmingYellow&quot wrote:
&quotty cobb&quot wrote:Oh come on GY, you've picked our first season in a new stadium with a new manager and a sense of optimism, where crowds are generally higher then they would normally be, and compared it against this season where many fans have given up due to the awful season we had last year - random selection indeed!

If you compared our first season in the Conference against the last season at the Manor then you theory would be disproved. We have gone from playing in the third tier of English football to playing in the fifth tier, prices have gone substantially up in that time yet the average crowd was higher - how do you explain that one??
You write that and claim I'm picking and choosing?? OK Ty, whatever.
You stated that you had 'randomly' picked the dates but to me it seems you've picked seasons that supported your argument.

I didn't claim to not randomly pick dates but doesn't my example show that price is not the main reason for why fans don't come to games, of course if it was free we would have a higher crowd but we would also go bust and it is a balancing act - one which I think the club have got just about right at the moment. Do you think a reduction of £2 would make enough of a difference to make it worthwhile? If not how far should the club go?
GodalmingYellow
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Re:

Post by GodalmingYellow »

&quotty cobb&quot wrote:
&quotGodalmingYellow&quot wrote:
&quotty cobb&quot wrote:Oh come on GY, you've picked our first season in a new stadium with a new manager and a sense of optimism, where crowds are generally higher then they would normally be, and compared it against this season where many fans have given up due to the awful season we had last year - random selection indeed!

If you compared our first season in the Conference against the last season at the Manor then you theory would be disproved. We have gone from playing in the third tier of English football to playing in the fifth tier, prices have gone substantially up in that time yet the average crowd was higher - how do you explain that one??
You write that and claim I'm picking and choosing?? OK Ty, whatever.
You stated that you had 'randomly' picked the dates but to me it seems you've picked seasons that supported your argument.

I didn't claim to not randomly pick dates but doesn't my example show that price is not the main reason for why fans don't come to games, of course if it was free we would have a higher crowd but we would also go bust and it is a balancing act - one which I think the club have got just about right at the moment. Do you think a reduction of £2 would make enough of a difference to make it worthwhile? If not how far should the club go?
If someone says they've done something a particular way, I think you should accept that.
Baboo
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Post by Baboo »

I don't recall there being an increase in prices for a couple of seasons now.

And when compared with what we pay at other grounds and the view we are afforded at the Kasstad I do not think we are being over charged.

What I am hearing now is, &quotso &amp so is going to get a season ticket next season&quot &quotI might get one next season&quot etc etc- Not the usual, &quotI ain't getting one again cos we're crap&quot.
GodalmingYellow
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Re:

Post by GodalmingYellow »

&quotBaboo&quot wrote:I don't recall there being an increase in prices for a couple of seasons now.

And when compared with what we pay at other grounds and the view we are afforded at the Kasstad I do not think we are being over charged.

What I am hearing now is, &quotso &amp so is going to get a season ticket next season&quot &quotI might get one next season&quot etc etc- Not the usual, &quotI ain't getting one again cos we're crap&quot.
Well that differs considerably from what I hear. I don't know anyone who doesn't think our matchday prices are too expensive, and I don't think there are many other clubs who charge £20 for a matchday ticket. Our prices are legendary amongst away supporters as well. As I've mentioned previously, it is in some cases cheaper to watch Premiership football, and so no wonder that our crowds have dipped in the 8 years since moving to Minchery.

As for no increase in prices for a couple of years, that may be the case, but it is representative of nothing. Prices should have dropped following relegation to League 2, then again for relegation to the Conference.
Matt D
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Post by Matt D »

it seems to me there are two arguments going on here - whether a ticket is in line with the rest of the league (i would think so, given our facilities - the cheapest adult ticket is £14 i think), and whether a ticket is expensive per se.

for the latter, i do think it's too expensive, but then i think football throughout the leagues has become too expensive for what it is. some premiership and championship clubs seem to be adjusting theirs, but elsewhere this kind of move doesn't seem to have happened yet.

how much is it to get in to a league game at oxford city these days? £7? more? £7 is what i paid to watch marine fc a couple of years ago, and they were several leagues below us.
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