When do we start panicking?

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YF Dan
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When do we start panicking?

Post by YF Dan » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:00 pm

Just so you know, I am. And have been since Curtis Nelson's achilles went.

But it's not just the results.

It's not just the slowest defence possibly since McGurkin and co.

It's not just a series of totally duff signings who are currently bleeding our club dry from the treatment room.

It's the total lack of vision. I see no plan. No long-term strategy.

And the post match ramblings inspire absolutely no confidence that there is any idea on how to fix our current problems.

In fact, all I hear is a man who clearly searches himself on Twitter, sees what people are complaining about, and then regurgitates the worst written tweets into a 2 and half minute waffle designed to appease fans, but actually infuriating them more.

I keep asking myself... Do I trust this man to make critical signings in the transfer window? The answer is no. Do I trust this man to make inspirational speeches to eek results out of matches we'll need to get points from? The answer is no. do I trust this man to find us a plan to ensure we stay up? The answer is no. Do I think he has the trust of the players? The answer is no. Has he got the fans behind him? No. Could we find someone better? The answer is definitely yes. I suggest the Lincoln brothers as a good place to start.

So, reluctantly, I think we should get rid. I think we're in big, big trouble.

RR, I accept your bet, and offer £20 to a charity of your/mine choosing.

Werthers Original
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Re: When do we start panicking?

Post by Werthers Original » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:49 pm

I’m getting anxious, and the performance against Wigan could be regarded as warranting the sack on its own. To be fair, he lost three of his best players in the same week, he joined too late to plan for pre-season, several of his signings have been injured, and at times we’ve looked very stylish. But there’s a lack of physicality and urgency about us that really worries me, and if Ivo and Agon are anything like Dwight and Gino we’d better hope for a good transfer window.

Radley Rambler
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Re: When do we start panicking?

Post by Radley Rambler » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:11 am

YF Dan wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:00 pm
Just so you know, I am. And have been since Curtis Nelson's achilles went.

But it's not just the results.

It's not just the slowest defence possibly since McGurkin and co.

It's not just a series of totally duff signings who are currently bleeding our club dry from the treatment room.

It's the total lack of vision. I see no plan. No long-term strategy.

And the post match ramblings inspire absolutely no confidence that there is any idea on how to fix our current problems.

In fact, all I hear is a man who clearly searches himself on Twitter, sees what people are complaining about, and then regurgitates the worst written tweets into a 2 and half minute waffle designed to appease fans, but actually infuriating them more.

I keep asking myself... Do I trust this man to make critical signings in the transfer window? The answer is no. Do I trust this man to make inspirational speeches to eek results out of matches we'll need to get points from? The answer is no. do I trust this man to find us a plan to ensure we stay up? The answer is no. Do I think he has the trust of the players? The answer is no. Has he got the fans behind him? No. Could we find someone better? The answer is definitely yes. I suggest the Lincoln brothers as a good place to start.

So, reluctantly, I think we should get rid. I think we're in big, big trouble.

RR, I accept your bet, and offer £20 to a charity of your/mine choosing.
Ok - game on! I hope i’m right for all our sakes.

YF Dan
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Re: When do we start panicking?

Post by YF Dan » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:30 pm

If he gets sacked, and we stay up, I propose £10 each to charity.

OtmoorYellow
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Re: When do we start panicking?

Post by OtmoorYellow » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:02 pm

Before panicking, let's look at the facts.

Before the season began, the majority of us felt that given the late change in manager, and loss of several of our best players to keep Eales' bank manager happy, mid-table obscurity was what we should expect - provided we did not get sucked into a relegation battle.

On top of the selling spree in the summer, we have had one of the worst long term injury crises that I can remember, with several of our remaining stars (Curtis Nelson, Robbie Hall, Christian Ribeiro, Charlie Raglan) all taken out long term, and then if that were not enough, many of the replacement signings (which had to be done at short notice) have also fallen foul of significant injuries (Agon Mehmeti, Ivo Pekalski), and most of the rest of the squad have been unavailable at some point this season due to injuries.

The result of all that is a very unsettled squad, who have barely played together. You can't lose that many good players and expect to still be able to perform with the best in the division. We are not ManUre or ManShitty or Chelski, with an unlimited pool of players to choose from.

We haven't played well for a while, but you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

We have had a fortunate lengthy period of stability under a couple of very good managers prior to Clotet arriving and we have got used to the taste of winning, or at least competing for the win, in every match, after a previous long period in football's nether regions. Only one team can win the division each season, so it won't always be us. We have to get used to a period of mediocrity again, until we have a full squad of top players to choose from. We won't make the play offs this season, so provided we do not enter a relegation battle, I think we have to accept our position given all that I have mentioned above.

As fans we all want to win every game, but it isn't realistic at the moment.

As for the Wigan game, it was appalling, but one horrendous result should not be the judge, jury, and executioner.

Having said all that, I do have concerns over Clotet. His persistence with one up front and the diminuitive Jack Payne behind, suggests he isn't up for recognising when things are not working and that he has no alternative plan. His post match interviews leave a lot to be desired, and if he talks to the media (and thereby the fans) in that way, what effect does that have on our belief in his ability to improve the squad's output? Furthermore, his apparent lack of passion and instruction from the sidelines seems to be missing. And the alleged falling out with some players is also not good moving forward.

For me the jury is still out on Clotet. Early in the season we had glimpses of some really good play. Following the numerous injuries, the stars have shone less brightly. The January window is going to be important. Very important. The most important in the last 5 years or more. It will contribute significantly to the resurgence or downfall of the league position, and therefore of Clotet himself.

As I said on RadOx a couple of weeks before the Wigan debacle, we won't have sufficient knowledge to make the decision until February/March time. But we need to be prepared for a potentially bumpy ride.

tomoufc
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Re: When do we start panicking?

Post by tomoufc » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:29 pm

OtmoorYellow wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:02 pm
Before panicking, let's look at the facts.

Before the season began, the majority of us felt that given the late change in manager, and loss of several of our best players to keep Eales' bank manager happy, mid-table obscurity was what we should expect - provided we did not get sucked into a relegation battle.

On top of the selling spree in the summer, we have had one of the worst long term injury crises that I can remember, with several of our remaining stars (Curtis Nelson, Robbie Hall, Christian Ribeiro, Charlie Raglan) all taken out long term, and then if that were not enough, many of the replacement signings (which had to be done at short notice) have also fallen foul of significant injuries (Agon Mehmeti, Ivo Pekalski), and most of the rest of the squad have been unavailable at some point this season due to injuries.

The result of all that is a very unsettled squad, who have barely played together. You can't lose that many good players and expect to still be able to perform with the best in the division. We are not ManUre or ManShitty or Chelski, with an unlimited pool of players to choose from.

We haven't played well for a while, but you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

We have had a fortunate lengthy period of stability under a couple of very good managers prior to Clotet arriving and we have got used to the taste of winning, or at least competing for the win, in every match, after a previous long period in football's nether regions. Only one team can win the division each season, so it won't always be us. We have to get used to a period of mediocrity again, until we have a full squad of top players to choose from. We won't make the play offs this season, so provided we do not enter a relegation battle, I think we have to accept our position given all that I have mentioned above.

As fans we all want to win every game, but it isn't realistic at the moment.

As for the Wigan game, it was appalling, but one horrendous result should not be the judge, jury, and executioner.

Having said all that, I do have concerns over Clotet. His persistence with one up front and the diminuitive Jack Payne behind, suggests he isn't up for recognising when things are not working and that he has no alternative plan. His post match interviews leave a lot to be desired, and if he talks to the media (and thereby the fans) in that way, what effect does that have on our belief in his ability to improve the squad's output? Furthermore, his apparent lack of passion and instruction from the sidelines seems to be missing. And the alleged falling out with some players is also not good moving forward.

For me the jury is still out on Clotet. Early in the season we had glimpses of some really good play. Following the numerous injuries, the stars have shone less brightly. The January window is going to be important. Very important. The most important in the last 5 years or more. It will contribute significantly to the resurgence or downfall of the league position, and therefore of Clotet himself.

As I said on RadOx a couple of weeks before the Wigan debacle, we won't have sufficient knowledge to make the decision until February/March time. But we need to be prepared for a potentially bumpy ride.
To be fair, we have played with two up front in the last two games.

I agree with most of this (so it saves me repeating what has been said), but I disagree slightly about Clotet's post-match interviews. His interviewing style should really be quite low down on the job specification list. The most important thing is whether he can communicate effectively with his players, and only they can really attest to that. He does seem to struggle a bit still with English. As someone who tried very hard, but ultimately didn't get very far at all, to learn Spanish, I sympathise. To me, it seems he's often searching for the right word or phrase, but not finding it on the spot, which leads to a bit of nervous waffling. He'll get better at it.
&quotI've been a slave to football. It follows you home, it follows you everywhere, and eats into your family life. But every working man misses out on some things because of his job. &quot

Werthers Original
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Re: When do we start panicking?

Post by Werthers Original » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:39 pm

Oh well panic over! Well maybe not, but a lot better today. Good old 442 rather than trying to be Barcelona and walk it into the net. Thought the midfield was excellent and Gino is a footballer after all. My theory is that he wasn’t injured at all but was sent to football school to brush up on the basics.

Kernow Yellow
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Re: When do we start panicking?

Post by Kernow Yellow » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:35 pm

I'm coming to this thread after today's morale booster but would have said the same straight after the Wigan match. It's far too early to panic. Appleton's first seasons with us both in L1 and L2 were shaky. We reaped the rewards by being patient.

Clotet's biggest failing has been the cup capitulations, meaning we don't have a tasty tie to look forward to after a disappointing league game. I bet Eales is less than happy too after seeing how much cash there is to be made from staying involved on several fronts. But luckily he's not a trigger-happy chairman.

Look at the table. We're not going to finish below any of the current bottom three. No way. And of course we're not going to finish below all of the other teams below Us. Despite our 7-0 humiliation we had then (and still have) a better goal difference than all of them. We've scored 3 or more goals seven times in the league so far. That's not too shabby really.

Therefore the only reason to sack Clotet would be if there is no progress for the rest of the season. He might not be great for Us but let's give him a chance. We've been a bit spoilt for managers in the last nine years, but Pep is already better than most of those that preceded Wilder. People have short memories of where we were before he came along.

Also, I don't see the point in doing too much in the transfer window. Sure we need cover for injuries and suspensions, but there's no point panic buying when it's pretty obvious which league we'll be in next season already. Nothing we do in January is going to affect that.

Kairdiff Exile
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Re: When do we start panicking?

Post by Kairdiff Exile » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:39 am

I mostly agree with KY. We had a rough December, but we were playing some exceptional teams. This month, we have a few games against relative dross (Franchise, Bury etc) which - if we win them - will cement our mid-table position. The Wigan result was an aberration, and we shouldn't read too much into it (even if Pep's reaction in the post-match interview was lamentably complacent). This is a solid mid-table side, even with the injuries we've had.

Where I do disagree with KY is on the topic of January signings. Our close season recruitment was basically knackered by Appleton leaving when he did. Pep brought in some very quick signings, of varying quality and pretty much all with injury issues. That's okay in some respects - they bought him some time, and some (eg, Ricardinho) have worked out well. But a couple of shrewd signings in January will make an important statement of intent of what he's trying to build, allow him the rest of the season to tweak his style around those big players, and work out what we need to buy over the summer to supplement our squad.

In addition, given the jumpy and shouty nature of some of our mouth-breather fans, we need an improved squad with a clear sense of purpose so that the ridiculous shouts for Pep's head don't spread. If we carry on with an injury-riddled squad, taking the view that we can strengthen in the summer, Pep might have a poor run of results, be left over-reliant on kids and squad players, and be forced out - meaning we start the whole wretched process again come May.

SWA
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Re: When do we start panicking?

Post by SWA » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:58 pm

Good win yesterday.
Anyone still desperately panicking and think we will get relegated? :roll:

SmileyMan
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Re: When do we start panicking?

Post by SmileyMan » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:21 pm

Kairdiff Exile wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:39 am
Where I do disagree with KY is on the topic of January signings. Our close season recruitment was basically knackered by Appleton leaving when he did. Pep brought in some very quick signings, of varying quality and pretty much all with injury issues. That's okay in some respects - they bought him some time, and some (eg, Ricardinho) have worked out well. But a couple of shrewd signings in January will make an important statement of intent of what he's trying to build, allow him the rest of the season to tweak his style around those big players, and work out what we need to buy over the summer to supplement our squad.
I would add the very strong caveat that the January window is typically full of over-priced deadweights and very short on quality players at affordable prices. Better to keep the wallet in the pocket than to panic-buy a dud, even if it does mean a long trudge towards a dull mid-table finish.

Our next three league games are against teams currently in the bottom half of the table - 9 points from those would see us just a couple of wins or a fistful of draws short of avoiding relegation (par 50 points for League 1)

ty cobb
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Re: When do we start panicking?

Post by ty cobb » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:54 pm

I think whether you think it is the time to panic or not depends on your expectations for this season. If you feel we should be in the play offs as a minimum than yes we should be panicking as we seem to be slipping away from this position. However, as I said in Nov

Well with Hall out for 4 months it is certainly a gloomy season. I think given the injury list, a new manager and a number of players who haven't played in the UK before I would be quite happy with a season of consolidation at this point and be ready to push on next season.

if you are aiming for mid-table consolidation than the points we've taken from our Christmas games have been about par - a draw away to a team fighting relation (and only because we couldn't hold out for 5 more minutes), a win at home to a team down there (albeit with decent resources) a hammering at home against the champions elect because we stupidly refused to shut up shop and change our tactics and a narrow defeat away against a team who will be in the mix again this season.

I actually think Pep comes out with a lot of credit after this period. To lose 7-0 at home with a shockingly long injury list we could have really struggled. However, we have battled back and shown the team is still together - taking 4 points from 3 tricky games is some achivement. He has even managed to get Martin to look like a decent centre back - excellent game on Sat.

There seems to be no allowance from some of our "fans" for the injury list and the circumstances of how he took over. His first choice left back was sold on transfer deadline day leaving us reliant on a 33 year old full back new to the country. Our first choice right back has had to retire. Our first choice centre backs have suffered long term injuries as has our international holding midfielder. This transfer window will be interesting not just to see who Pep brings in but also to see if Eales is still interested in the club - not spending any of the £3m we got for Marv and the takeover rumours suggested to me at least that he has lost interest/resources/realised the stadium position makes things impossible (what has happened to those Heads of Terms............?). If we stump up some hard cash for some decent youngsters it would suggest our chairman still has ambitions for us. And I disagree the Jan window is no good - Roofe came in Jan and if we get someone else like that in we can really push on. I think we need some width and pace on the wings be it wingers or a flying full back like Baldock. I also think we need some steel in midfield - someone who would not have let Wigan boss the game, maybe our returning Swedish player can provide this. Going forward we look really good, we create loads of chances (we could have had 6 against MK Dons) at the back we rarely keep a clean sheet. Most importantly if the likes of Gino can stay fit and show why someone paid a million for him we may not need many people.

However, I would much prefer this than a dour team grinding out results. MK Dons was a great game, end to end stuff, under Wilder and Apps to some extent, we would have taken the sting out the game and settled for the 3-1 - we kept on pushing looking for another goal, positive subs so I like the approach Pep takes. Given this is his first job as a manager in the UK, being in the top 10 at the turn of the year is pretty good going and he should get much more credit than a "when do we start panicking" thread imho.

Old Abingdonian
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Re: When do we start panicking?

Post by Old Abingdonian » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:14 pm

I would agree with this whole-heartedly.

You cannot ignore the entertainment value. Having watched us struggle under Asprey, and have mixed fortunes under Greaves and Adkins, I think it is important to arrive at a game (especially if you have to travel a distance) thinking that you will probably see some entertaining play. It is not, of course, entertaining to lose 7 - 0 however sparkling the opposition.

Some fans also have short and selective memories of the Appleton era. Whereas it was clearer where we were going a year ago, I think that has much more to do with the stadium situation and Eales's apparent uncertainty. We were pretty unceremoniously crushed at home by Sheffield Utd and Bolton Wanderers (and Fleetwood) less than a year ago, and although we didn't concede seven in a game, we were clearly outclassed.

I suspect the cup triumphs last year also affect fans' memories. They were a great morale-boost, and also something of a distraction from some fairly grim league form at home.

Radley Rambler
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Re: When do we start panicking?

Post by Radley Rambler » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:47 pm

Radley Rambler wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:11 am
YF Dan wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:00 pm
Just so you know, I am. And have been since Curtis Nelson's achilles went.

But it's not just the results.

It's not just the slowest defence possibly since McGurkin and co.

It's not just a series of totally duff signings who are currently bleeding our club dry from the treatment room.

It's the total lack of vision. I see no plan. No long-term strategy.

And the post match ramblings inspire absolutely no confidence that there is any idea on how to fix our current problems.

In fact, all I hear is a man who clearly searches himself on Twitter, sees what people are complaining about, and then regurgitates the worst written tweets into a 2 and half minute waffle designed to appease fans, but actually infuriating them more.

I keep asking myself... Do I trust this man to make critical signings in the transfer window? The answer is no. Do I trust this man to make inspirational speeches to eek results out of matches we'll need to get points from? The answer is no. do I trust this man to find us a plan to ensure we stay up? The answer is no. Do I think he has the trust of the players? The answer is no. Has he got the fans behind him? No. Could we find someone better? The answer is definitely yes. I suggest the Lincoln brothers as a good place to start.

So, reluctantly, I think we should get rid. I think we're in big, big trouble.

RR, I accept your bet, and offer £20 to a charity of your/mine choosing.
Ok - game on! I hope i’m right for all our sakes.
Are you paying out yet Dan? 8)

Jimski
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Re: When do we start panicking?

Post by Jimski » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:59 pm

I dunno. I'm still looking down the table rather than up. Until we get 50 points (assuming we do). I honestly have very little faith in this side at the moment, despite the last two wins

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